Author Topic: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change  (Read 8497 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 07:07:13 AM »
Oh Charles, give me a break. You are certainly aware that the term "comes out" has come into common parlance over the past few years for anyone who publicly acknowledges anything that was previously unacknowledged. The headline isn't unfair, misleading, or flat-out wrong, it is clever, attention-grabbing, and ironic. Just what a headline is supposed to be.

Richard, you are flat-out correct.   ;)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 10:14:06 AM by Richard Johnson »

Charles_Austin

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2007, 07:23:12 AM »
Stuff and nonsense! (Pooh Bear, I think).  "Come out" in sexuality discussions means to announce oneself as gay or lesbian.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 10:14:14 AM by Richard Johnson »

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2007, 10:10:36 AM »
Stuff and nonsense! (Pooh Bear, I think).  "Come out" in sexuality discussions means to announce oneself as gay or lesbian.

I still disagree, but in deference to Charles and Lou (who seem to agree on this), and to keep the thread discussing the issue rather than the headline, I've made a slight change in the headline. I hope that salves everyone's feelings without entirely abandoning the irony.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 10:14:43 AM by Richard Johnson »
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Maryland Brian

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2007, 10:33:05 AM »
Furthermore, Lutherans Concerned is not a congregation or "synodically authorized worshiping community", so their "sponsoring" a public celebration of the Eucharist is problematic.

The solutions to those problems is that the LC/NA service is likely being held under the auspices of a local congregation and the Metro Chicago Synod Bishop has authorized Bishop Payne to preside at a Eucharist in his Synod. 

aAx, Steven+

  Unless ... perhaps LC/NA is an alternate Lutheran body - they seem to have ties to an ordination prep and candidate placement process AND they sponsor services of worship .... Hmmm ...

MD Brian

Erma_S._Wolf

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2007, 11:56:12 AM »

Fifth -- Lutherans Concerned is a recognized interest group by the ELCA and therefore can have any kind of worship services they desire.  They were recognized by the Division of Ministry in 2004, I believe. 

While LC/NA is indeed recognized by the ELCA and has a certain official status as a result, I am still troubled by the circumstances this time around, as well as the sponsoring of a worship service during a CWA.  I know some of that is due to my background in both the Missouri Synod and the LCA (which has/had rules about such services that don't apply in the ELCA), but I find it divisive to have another body, no matter how "recognized," sponsoring a full worship service of Holy Communion not only during the Assembly, but on the premises of the hotel that is the "official" ELCA Assembly hotel. And I would say that no matter which group was doing this.  And given that the preacher will be a pastor who has just been removed from the roster due to the disciplinary process -- well, at worst it is schismatic; at best it is just plain tacky.   (Which, as other Southerners know, is a very strong condemnation!)

I am serious when I say that I believe that Bishop Payne will be violating S8.12.h. if she presides at this service, and that this is threatening the unity of the ELCA.  I also am certain that nothing will be done in regards to this.  It would take 10 synodical bishops to bring charges, or Bishop Hanson as presiding bishop could, and under the circumstances that just will not happen.  I am also certain that Bishop Payne will not be persuaded to change her mind on this matter; I do believe that she sincerely believes that she is acting in the role of a prophet, and prophets are certain that their opponents are opposing the will of God.  I do think it is important that the rest of the bishops not be allowed to think that no one cares about this.

Erma Wolf

Charles_Austin

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2007, 12:02:57 PM »
There have been "extra-assembly" services of various groups at numerous LCA, ALC and ELCA conventions/assemblies. And how does one propose the ELCA discipline a pastor or bishop or anyone who participates in such a service, at which the Gospel is preached and the sacrament administered?

Erma_S._Wolf

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2007, 12:28:19 PM »
Just because such "extra-assembly" services have occured before doesn't mean it is a good idea, then or now.  In my judgement, this service will be incredibly divisive.  And, frankly, I am not so certain that it is the Gospel that will be preached.

As for how one proposes to discipline those who participate in this service, I don't know the answer to that.  But I am certain that if this was a group of ELCA pastors who supported white supremacy that someone would figure out a way!

Erma Wolf

ptmccain

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2007, 01:10:26 PM »
Bumping this to the front of the line, so to speak, since I received no response:


Wasn't Bishop Hanson himself very much supportive of the gay-rights movement agenda in the ELCA when he was a Synod bishop in MN, or am I confusing him with another ELCA bishop? Trying to keep track of all your bishops is kind of a "payne" for us non-LCMS types, even as trying to keep tack of our District Presidents, must be for you folks.

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2007, 01:16:50 PM »
This is slightly off-topic, but goes to LC/NA sponsoring a liturgy of Holy Communion. Having grown up, been educated and ordained in the LCA, I was always taught that only congregations, synods and the national church could authorize a service of Word and Sacrament. All other groups and gatherings, including retreats, worship at our seminaries, nursing homes, etc.,  needed to be authorized by a congregation, the synod or the churchwide. What specifically is the policy with regards to establishing and sponsoring a liturgy of Holy Communion in the ELCA?

I admit my own fuzziness on the issue. When a group of us pastors goes on retreat we simply hold a eucharist. We don't ask anyone's permission.

Kurt Strause
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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2007, 01:22:11 PM »
  Team Hesse: "Margaret is a person of great personal integrity..."

  Erma S. Wolf: "just plain tacky."

  Me: Integrity mired in tackiness is cleansed only by resignation, not prophecy.

Nothing cheesier than a tacky prophet and that is the result if one claims to be a  prophet while continuing to take a bishop's paycheck. Follow the money or publicity to discover where the treasure is hidden.
 
Pete (Just show me the money) Garrison
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Charles_Austin

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2007, 01:22:55 PM »
Long long ago, we jettisoned the "rule" that said a communion service had to be "sponsored" by a congregation. And long before it was jettisoned, it was widely ignored.

BeornBjornson

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2007, 01:25:30 PM »
 
 

Fifth -- Lutherans Concerned is a recognized interest group by the ELCA and therefore can have any kind of worship services they desire.  They were recognized by the Division of Ministry in 2004, I believe.  

While LC/NA is indeed recognized by the ELCA and has a certain official status as a result, I am still troubled by the circumstances this time around, as well as the sponsoring of a worship service during a CWA. I know some of that is due to my background in both the Missouri Synod and the LCA (which has/had rules about such services that don't apply in the ELCA), but I find it divisive to have another body, no matter how "recognized," sponsoring a full worship service of Holy Communion not only during the Assembly, but on the premises of the hotel that is the "official" ELCA Assembly hotel. And I would say that no matter which group was doing this. And given that the preacher will be a pastor who has just been removed from the roster due to the disciplinary process -- well, at worst it is schismatic; at best it is just plain tacky. (Which, as other Southerners know, is a very strong condemnation!)

I am serious when I say that I believe that Bishop Payne will be violating S8.12.h. if she presides at this service, and that this is threatening the unity of the ELCA. I also am certain that nothing will be done in regards to this. It would take 10 synodical bishops to bring charges, or Bishop Hanson as presiding bishop could, and under the circumstances that just will not happen. I am also certain that Bishop Payne will not be persuaded to change her mind on this matter; I do believe that she sincerely believes that she is acting in the role of a prophet, and prophets are certain that their opponents are opposing the will of God. I do think it is important that the rest of the bishops not be allowed to think that no one cares about this.

Erma Wolf

There have been "extra-assembly" services of various groups at numerous LCA, ALC and ELCA conventions/assemblies. And how does one propose the ELCA discipline a pastor or bishop or anyone who participates in such a service, at which the Gospel is preached and the sacrament administered?
Just because such "extra-assembly" services have occured before doesn't mean it is a good idea, then or now. In my judgement, this service will be incredibly divisive. And, frankly, I am not so certain that it is the Gospel that will be preached.

As for how one proposes to discipline those who participate in this service, I don't know the answer to that. But I am certain that if this was a group of ELCA pastors who supported white supremacy that someone would figure out a way!

Erma Wolf


This is slightly off-topic, but goes to LC/NA sponsoring a liturgy of Holy Communion. Having grown up, been educated and ordained in the LCA, I was always taught that only congregations, synods and the national church could authorize a service of Word and Sacrament. All other groups and gatherings, including retreats, worship at our seminaries, nursing homes, etc., needed to be authorized by a congregation, the synod or the churchwide. What specifically is the policy with regards to establishing and sponsoring a liturgy of Holy Communion in the ELCA?

I admit my own fuzziness on the issue. When a group of us pastors goes on retreat we simply hold a eucharist. We don't ask anyone's permission.

Kurt Strause

The LC/NA thing is a politicizing of the Eucharist, using the Sacrament for ideological/political purposes.  And then making one's intentional presence or absence at the Sacrament a political statement.  Where is the strengthening of the unity of the church in this?  Where is the pastoral care and nurture in the faith in all this?  Sacramental grace and forgiveness usurped for political ends.  And by whose authority?  PB Hanson or Metro Chicago Synod?  Kurt, the celebration of the Eucharist by pastors in a retreat setting is far from the public politicizing of the Eucharist, intended to make a political statement, with accompanying press releases and publicity.
Ken Kimball

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2007, 02:49:43 PM »
Long long ago, we jettisoned the "rule" that said a communion service had to be "sponsored" by a congregation. And long before it was jettisoned, it was widely ignored.

Well, Charles, in the Society of the Holy Trinity and in the Via de Cristo, we have not celebrated the Eucharist apart from a congregation-sponsored service without first seeking and receiving written permission from the local Bishop.  The Bishops -- and the ones I've dealt with on this all had ALC roots -- have not replied, "It's not necessary," but, "Here's your letter."  That's a rather curious response if the classical Lutheran position on celebrations of Holy Communion had been "jettisoned."

LC/NA communions have, at the last 3 CWAs, been held in local congregations and, presumedly, under their auspices.  If this time it is in the hotel, that makes it an even greater ecclesial provocation.

Christe eleison, Steven+
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Kurt Strause

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2007, 03:00:16 PM »
Long long ago, we jettisoned the "rule" that said a communion service had to be "sponsored" by a congregation. And long before it was jettisoned, it was widely ignored.

Was the rule "jettisoned" by not including it in the constitutions of the ELCA? Or did the LCA jettison it before that? And if so, do you recall when?

Kurt Strause
ELCA pastor, Lancaster, PA

Jeffrey Spencer

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Re: Bishop Payne Comes Out in Support of Change
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2007, 04:06:35 PM »
For what it's worth, I'm sure the service will take place when the assembly is in recess.  If not, voting members run the risk of having their travel expenses and meal vouchers revoked.  It was made clear in the pre-assembly materials that all voting members had to be in attendance at all sessions or be ready to pony up for their own expenses.

Uh, incidentally, I have some Cubs tickets for sale.  Cheap.

Jeffrey Spencer