Author Topic: Impeachment Hearings  (Read 123886 times)

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1125 on: February 10, 2020, 11:47:30 AM »

That is part of their job. Opponents in politics, in sports, in debates, in courtrooms, etc. do not have to be enemies. They can be on opposite sides without hating one another.

"Can" and "do" are not the same.  There is a long tradition in politics, sports, debates, courtrooms, etc., of hating opponents.

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Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1126 on: February 10, 2020, 12:31:06 PM »
Hating impairs one’s judgement and clouds one’s mind. If you only hate an opponent, you will never defeat them or win them over.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

mariemeyer

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1127 on: February 10, 2020, 12:35:14 PM »
A while back Pr. Speckhard said he's never seen anything concrete about President Trump's career racism. This piece from The Atlantic does a nice job collecting examples throughout the decades: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/

BTW, I don't call Trump a racist as a shorthand to call his voters/supporters racist. I call Trump a racist because he is one. I very much doubt anyone on this board who supports him is a racist. Again, I understand that a great number of people who vote for him do so because their conscience is convicted that he is the best person to turn the tide against abortion. My concern is with those who cheerlead him in all things.

M. Staneck
That article is very telling about how deeply and long Donald Trump has been acting in a racist fashion, and how that has gained him the approval of conservatives in the Republican party. He is willing to say and do what more careful Republicans could not bring themselves to say or do.

Peace,
Michael

 New York City natives know first hand that Donald Trump managed his NYC real estate as a racist.  My dad, like many immigrants, eventually owned a few small NYC apartment buildings. He also earned a living painting apartments. Some of his buddies scraped floors, others did plumbing, still others did plumbing. He, like his fellow immigrants, rented to persons regardless of their race.

The fact that the large Trump Real Estate Empire did not rent to persons of color was well known among NYC landlords.

Marie Meyer   

Sadly that was not my family's immigration experience.  My parents, Italian, were denied apartments by both German and Irish landlords.  Only Jewish people would rent to them.  While the building they lived in eventually joined by my sister and me was rather diverse there were many Jewish families and it is with them that my parents built their strongest relationships.  As a result my sister and I can speak a bit of Yiddish!
Might the area you lived have been a factor?  My Dad was part owner of the 40 family Bronx apartment house where I lived until college. Our immediate neighbors were Jewish - the other families on our floor were Italian and Irish. I was often called on to re-light Sabbath calendars for Jewish families throughout the building. The women were my "Tantes," Tante Sarah being a favorite. My parents were often invited to Bar Mitzphas.  "Pop Otten" was also part owner in two other buildings where tenants were of different races, faiths and nationalities. Long story short, "De Bronx" was a great part of America to grow up in during the forties and fifties.  During high school I helped my father with the real estate paper work, something I continued after his death.

NYC, then and now, consisted of several real estate cultures.  At the top were landlords who inherited property or money to start their real estate business.   There was also a sub-culture of immigrants who often lived in the apartment buildings they owned  and did much of the necessary care and maintenance.  "De Bronx" personified the diversity that made America great economically, socially, ethnically and racially.   My parents belonged to the latter group. Although neither were high school graduates, they were able to send all four children to college, two to seminary and one to graduate school as a result of the opportunities this country offered them.

Along the way learned Yiddish and a bit about NYC real estate.



Marie Meyer   

Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1128 on: February 10, 2020, 01:03:17 PM »
Marie, it sounds like you were a part of the golden age of the Bronx and immigration in the great city of New York. We have friends who were there too, with great memories of those times.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Eileen Smith

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1129 on: February 10, 2020, 01:19:25 PM »
A while back Pr. Speckhard said he's never seen anything concrete about President Trump's career racism. This piece from The Atlantic does a nice job collecting examples throughout the decades: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/

BTW, I don't call Trump a racist as a shorthand to call his voters/supporters racist. I call Trump a racist because he is one. I very much doubt anyone on this board who supports him is a racist. Again, I understand that a great number of people who vote for him do so because their conscience is convicted that he is the best person to turn the tide against abortion. My concern is with those who cheerlead him in all things.

M. Staneck
That article is very telling about how deeply and long Donald Trump has been acting in a racist fashion, and how that has gained him the approval of conservatives in the Republican party. He is willing to say and do what more careful Republicans could not bring themselves to say or do.

Peace,
Michael

 New York City natives know first hand that Donald Trump managed his NYC real estate as a racist.  My dad, like many immigrants, eventually owned a few small NYC apartment buildings. He also earned a living painting apartments. Some of his buddies scraped floors, others did plumbing, still others did plumbing. He, like his fellow immigrants, rented to persons regardless of their race.

The fact that the large Trump Real Estate Empire did not rent to persons of color was well known among NYC landlords.

Marie Meyer   

Sadly that was not my family's immigration experience.  My parents, Italian, were denied apartments by both German and Irish landlords.  Only Jewish people would rent to them.  While the building they lived in eventually joined by my sister and me was rather diverse there were many Jewish families and it is with them that my parents built their strongest relationships.  As a result my sister and I can speak a bit of Yiddish!
Might the area you lived have been a factor?  My Dad was part owner of the 40 family Bronx apartment house where I lived until college. Our immediate neighbors were Jewish - the other families on our floor were Italian and Irish. I was often called on to re-light Sabbath calendars for Jewish families throughout the building. The women were my "Tantes," Tante Sarah being a favorite. My parents were often invited to Bar Mitzphas.  "Pop Otten" was also part owner in two other buildings where tenants were of different races, faiths and nationalities. Long story short, "De Bronx" was a great part of America to grow up in during the forties and fifties.  During high school I helped my father with the real estate paper work, something I continued after his death.

NYC, then and now, consisted of several real estate cultures.  At the top were landlords who inherited property or money to start their real estate business.   There was also a sub-culture of immigrants who often lived in the apartment buildings they owned  and did much of the necessary care and maintenance.  "De Bronx" personified the diversity that made America great economically, socially, ethnically and racially.   My parents belonged to the latter group. Although neither were high school graduates, they were able to send all four children to college, two to seminary and one to graduate school as a result of the opportunities this country offered them.

Along the way learned Yiddish and a bit about NYC real estate.



Marie Meyer

I also grew up in the Bronx two blocks north of Fordham Rd. and three down from the Grand Concourse.  It was wonderful!  My parents never complained or held a grudge, they simply told their story, not in such a way that suggested they were entitled to an apartment, rather it was just the way things were.  The neighborhood was eclectic, to say the least.  Our building had 54 apartments.  There were four other apartment buildings on the block, the rest being row houses.  There were a lot of Irish with Our Lady of Refuge rectory and convent across the street and the church around the corner.  (This church now holds the distinction as one of the most unsafe places in the Bronx where drugs are dealt in the pews.)  There were a lot of Jews, some Germans and some Asians.  My grandmother's best friend was from Spain.  There were two black families and my dad was very close to one of the men in those families.  There were very few Italians.  I have to admit that I never sensed any animosity toward Italians.  Much of what I know came from older cousins however a documentary on PBS regarding the Italian immigration experience very strongly supported what my cousins told me.   

I never thought of the word diversity growing up.  It was just there.  We didn't all look alike or speak alike but there was a closeness - a sense of caring that doesn't exist today, at least not in my experience.  I think the mothers knew all the kids on the block and watched out for them.  And while I am not much of an athlete I excelled at Ace, King, Queen!  Always good to meet up with another Bronx girl.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1130 on: February 10, 2020, 01:38:13 PM »

That is part of their job. Opponents in politics, in sports, in debates, in courtrooms, etc. do not have to be enemies. They can be on opposite sides without hating one another.

"Can" and "do" are not the same.  There is a long tradition in politics, sports, debates, courtrooms, etc., of hating opponents.


There is also a long tradition in politics, sports, debates, courtrooms, etc. of opponents being friends outside of the competition. Politicians may be on the same side in a future issue. Athletes could be teammates the next season.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 01:43:51 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1131 on: February 10, 2020, 01:40:48 PM »
I really don't give a      care whether or not Pelosi or anyone else actually hates Trump, or is a good Catholic for that matter. That is between her, her confessor, and God. Not my circus, not my monkeys. What is of concern is that for whatever reason she and other Democrats act toward Trump in hateful ways. And yes I know that Trump behaves badly and that Republicans behaved badly during Obama's presidency and SOTU addresses. I didn't like it then. Does that make Democrats behaving badly good? Do Democrats want to make as a point of pride that they're no better than Republicans?
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David Garner

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1132 on: February 10, 2020, 02:10:32 PM »
I really don't give a      care whether or not Pelosi or anyone else actually hates Trump, or is a good Catholic for that matter. That is between her, her confessor, and God. Not my circus, not my monkeys. What is of concern is that for whatever reason she and other Democrats act toward Trump in hateful ways. And yes I know that Trump behaves badly and that Republicans behaved badly during Obama's presidency and SOTU addresses. I didn't like it then. Does that make Democrats behaving badly good? Do Democrats want to make as a point of pride that they're no better than Republicans?

It has never been about pride or principle on either side.  It is about power.  They will do or say anything to obtain and maintain it.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

peter_speckhard

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1133 on: February 10, 2020, 03:34:22 PM »
Hating impairs one’s judgement and clouds one’s mind. If you only hate an opponent, you will never defeat them or win them over.
Those who hate rarely think they are hating. I think you (meaning you personally and a certain strain of Democrat more generally) exhibit all the signs of hatred toward Trump, including an inability to acknowledge it. Your comments about him seem to flow almost automatically from impaired judgment and a view clouded by biases, all your efforts to defeat him have only strengthened him, and you are further than ever from winning him or any of his supporters over to your view. It is time you considered the possibility that you might really hate the man.

RDPreus

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1134 on: February 10, 2020, 04:38:45 PM »
Love and hatred are not just ideas.  They are actions.  Hatred is revealed by what we say.  When what we say about our neighbor interprets his actions in such a way as to make him look bad, instead of trying to put the best construction on everything, we are hating him.  Then, we appeal to our hatred as justification for more hatred.  "But of course Mr. Jones is a dishonorable cheat.  Didn't we just explain the facts in such a way as to illustrate this?"  Malicious judgment put into words becomes documentation to prove that the malicious judgment is good.  But malice is evil, not good.

Let us apply this to the impeachment of Donald Trump.  Love would interpret his telephone call request to the Ukrainian government official to "do us a favor" as meaning that Trump wanted his help so that we, that is, the American people, could get to the bottom of some very disturbing reports of corruption.  Love would not impute to Trump the motive of wanting to smear a political rival.  Love would, lacking evidence to the contrary, take Trump at his word that he was legitimately concerned about corruption that he thought the Ukrainian government should investigate.  The Democrats interpreted the phone call to mean that Trump wanted to cheat in an American election.  They imputed to Trump evil motives.  This is because they hated him.  Had they loved him, they would not have impeached him.  Their hatred determined how they would interpret the facts.  Their interpretation of the facts became the basis for their accusations.  Therefore, their hatred of Trump was the real grounds for his impeachment.

J.L. Precup

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1135 on: February 10, 2020, 04:48:26 PM »
I really don't give a      care whether or not Pelosi or anyone else actually hates Trump, or is a good Catholic for that matter. That is between her, her confessor, and God. Not my circus, not my monkeys. What is of concern is that for whatever reason she and other Democrats act toward Trump in hateful ways. And yes I know that Trump behaves badly and that Republicans behaved badly during Obama's presidency and SOTU addresses. I didn't like it then. Does that make Democrats behaving badly good? Do Democrats want to make as a point of pride that they're no better than Republicans?

"Alert me when Speaker Pelosi sexually assaults someone, mocks the disabled, tears a child from their parents, pays off a porn star, insults a Gold Star family, calls Nazis fine people, denies science, steals from a charity, of starts a fake university.  Until then, take a seat."  --Max Von Essen
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 05:25:06 PM by J.L. Precup »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1136 on: February 10, 2020, 05:11:26 PM »
I call BS on your post, Pastor Preus, unless you are making a satirical parody of some kind of warped “ love.”
But OK, let’s try it your way.
Love says that when you see a friend committing a crime or doing damage to himself or another, you do not go the “best construction” route, but, for his sake and the sake of those he is hurting You call the law.
Your silly scenario assumes that’s the Democrats hate. And BTW where’s the love in that?
Or how about this?
When a Missouri Synod Pastor says he believes that women should be ordained because that would mean more people to preach the gospel, you take him at his word that he is legitimately concerned about preaching the gospel and having more people around to do so. You do not try to stop him or remove him from the pulpit or synodical school where he is speaking, preaching and teaching.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1137 on: February 10, 2020, 05:47:25 PM »
I call BS on your post, Pastor Preus, unless you are making a satirical parody of some kind of warped “ love.”
But OK, let’s try it your way.
Love says that when you see a friend committing a crime or doing damage to himself or another, you do not go the “best construction” route, but, for his sake and the sake of those he is hurting You call the law.
Your silly scenario assumes that’s the Democrats hate. And BTW where’s the love in that?
Or how about this?
When a Missouri Synod Pastor says he believes that women should be ordained because that would mean more people to preach the gospel, you take him at his word that he is legitimately concerned about preaching the gospel and having more people around to do so. You do not try to stop him or remove him from the pulpit or synodical school where he is speaking, preaching and teaching.
Weird. In this very thread you criticize people for dodging, equivocating, and changing the subject when they bring in previous presidents for comparison to Trump. Bringing in the response of LCMS pastors to other LCMS pastors who deviate from LCMS practice would seem perhaps a tad further afield.

You really need to open your mind to the possibility that not all, but the lion’s share of the hatred motivating our politics emanates from the Left, and just might be lurking inside you, too.

Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1138 on: February 10, 2020, 06:04:12 PM »
Not buyin' it, Peter. I listened to the Right/Right during the Clinton years, voices like Limbaugh, Savage, the other talk-radio loudmouths. Read the findings of those investigating possible terrorism or violence against people or institutions of our society. How many "lefties" will you find prominent there?
   I do not suggest that some liberals speak roughly or even hatefully.
   But the lion's share? Not unless that lion is an ailing senior citizen of a zoo with only four animals, the other three of them plant-eaters. Then he might get most of the meat.
   Pastor Preus says: "Why can't you in love take the president at his word that he is just concerned about corruption rather than violating his oath of office?"
   I ask (re my post just upstream) "Why can't you just assume that a pastor advocating ordination for women is just concerned about preaching the Gospel rather than violating his oath of office?"
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1139 on: February 10, 2020, 06:14:25 PM »

There is a difference between hating what someone does or says, and hating the person. I love my wife and my children. That will not change. I can also detest some things they do or say; but that doesn't change my love for them.


We also have the biblical idea that μισέω and שָׂנֵא are not so much about having great animosity towards other people, but are more about "loving less" than someone else. Thus, when Jesus tells us to hate our family members (Luke 14:26); Matthew 10:37 captures the sense by saying, "Love me more than these."


Similarly, Paul's quote of Malachi 1:2-3 that God loved Jacob, but hated Esau (Romans 9:13) is a way of saying God loved Jacob more than Esau.


When we read in Genesis that Jacob hated Leah (29:31, 33) and he continued to have children with her, it is likely that the meaning is, he loved Leah less than Rachel as v. 30 states.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]