Author Topic: Impeachment Hearings  (Read 123884 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1050 on: February 08, 2020, 01:48:17 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
The point is that Evangelicals are being criticized for supporting a politicians whose actions go against their beliefs and Catholics are being criticized for opposing Catholic politicians whose actions go against their beliefs.
Me:
No. It would seem that acceptance of our current laws does not "go against their beliefs" if one is speaking of the average Roman Catholic in the pew. Or if having an abortion does "go against their beliefs," they do not feel that every law has to undergird their beliefs.

I keep forgetting what an expert on RCC polity you are. How foolish of some of us to think that it is the Magisterium of the RCC and especially the Bishops who speak for the RCC and what the beliefs of that church body are. All along it is the putative average Roman Catholic in the pew (whose minds you have apparently read precisely and guess what, they agree with you) who speak for the church.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1051 on: February 08, 2020, 01:57:13 PM »
A while back Pr. Speckhard said he's never seen anything concrete about President Trump's career racism. This piece from The Atlantic does a nice job collecting examples throughout the decades: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/

BTW, I don't call Trump a racist as a shorthand to call his voters/supporters racist. I call Trump a racist because he is one. I very much doubt anyone on this board who supports him is a racist. Again, I understand that a great number of people who vote for him do so because their conscience is convicted that he is the best person to turn the tide against abortion. My concern is with those who cheerlead him in all things.

M. Staneck
The article makes tremendous leaps. In 1973, people running real estate development for Trumpís firm engaged in informal redlining, ergo Trump is a racist?

Given that Iíve never seen Trump do anything racist, and given that he disavows racism, and given that all Republican candidates in my lifetime have been decried as racists by publications like The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and online places like Vox, and those claims have been bogus, what I would need in order to be convinced that Trump is a long time racist is evidence that Trump was was widely criticized for being racist in the decades before he became a Republican. Did President Clinton consider Trump to be a racist? Why it why not? Did Mike Bloomberg ever complain about Trumpís racism? Trump has been a public figure for many decades, and in my circles was generally ridiculed for his greed, opulence, immorality, crass showmanship, and self-absorption. By I never heard a word from anyone about his racism until he ran for president with an R after his name.

Michael Slusser

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1052 on: February 08, 2020, 02:01:50 PM »
A while back Pr. Speckhard said he's never seen anything concrete about President Trump's career racism. This piece from The Atlantic does a nice job collecting examples throughout the decades: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/

BTW, I don't call Trump a racist as a shorthand to call his voters/supporters racist. I call Trump a racist because he is one. I very much doubt anyone on this board who supports him is a racist. Again, I understand that a great number of people who vote for him do so because their conscience is convicted that he is the best person to turn the tide against abortion. My concern is with those who cheerlead him in all things.

M. Staneck
That article is very telling about how deeply and long Donald Trump has been acting in a racist fashion, and how that has gained him the approval of conservatives in the Republican party. He is willing to say and do what more careful Republicans could not bring themselves to say or do.

Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Matt Hummel

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1053 on: February 08, 2020, 02:51:58 PM »
A while back Pr. Speckhard said he's never seen anything concrete about President Trump's career racism. This piece from The Atlantic does a nice job collecting examples throughout the decades: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/

BTW, I don't call Trump a racist as a shorthand to call his voters/supporters racist. I call Trump a racist because he is one. I very much doubt anyone on this board who supports him is a racist. Again, I understand that a great number of people who vote for him do so because their conscience is convicted that he is the best person to turn the tide against abortion. My concern is with those who cheerlead him in all things.

M. Staneck
The article makes tremendous leaps. In 1973, people running real estate development for Trumpís firm engaged in informal redlining, ergo Trump is a racist?

Given that Iíve never seen Trump do anything racist, and given that he disavows racism, and given that all Republican candidates in my lifetime have been decried as racists by publications like The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and online places like Vox, and those claims have been bogus, what I would need in order to be convinced that Trump is a long time racist is evidence that Trump was was widely criticized for being racist in the decades before he became a Republican. Did President Clinton consider Trump to be a racist? Why it why not? Did Mike Bloomberg ever complain about Trumpís racism? Trump has been a public figure for many decades, and in my circles was generally ridiculed for his greed, opulence, immorality, crass showmanship, and self-absorption. By I never heard a word from anyone about his racism until he ran for president with an R after his name.

Peter- look at the full page ad Trump placed basically advocating for the judicial lynching of young men of color for a crime we now know they did not commit. He has had ample opportunity to walk that back, but in typical Trumpean fashion, he has refused. The man's got issues.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1054 on: February 08, 2020, 02:53:37 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
I keep forgetting what an expert on RCC polity you are. How foolish of some of us to think that it is the Magisterium of the RCC and especially the Bishops who speak for the RCC and what the beliefs of that church body are. All along it is the putative average Roman Catholic in the pew (whose minds you have apparently read precisely and guess what, they agree with you) who speak for the church.
Me:
Sometimes the church is more than the magisterium. Sometimes the church is more than CTCR rulings.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Matt Hummel

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1055 on: February 08, 2020, 02:57:32 PM »
Catholic politicians and others can be against abortion laws as they stand now all they want. But the truth is the American public, that is voters, (remember them?) favor the current laws concerning abortion.

Yes, yes. But the issue is not Catholic politicians standing athwart the path of Progress saying, "Basta!" as you know. It is people claiming that it is their Catholicism that impels them to worship Moloch in the guise of the great American Abortion-Industrial complex that is the lament.

And that people like you throw up the "majority" opinion as your moral cloak. Let me guess, 160 years ago you would be railing against the abolitionists because the majority of Americans thought it was OK to own slaves, and who were they anyway to interfere with property rights? Besides, you would no doubt argue [black people] really aren't people, are they? Chief Justice Taney has spoken!
[/color]
[black people]


And the Bible condemned the sons of Ham/Canaan to be the slaves of his siblings.[/color]

Y tu mama tambien.
Matt Hummel


ďThe chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.Ē

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mariemeyer

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1056 on: February 08, 2020, 03:10:59 PM »
A while back Pr. Speckhard said he's never seen anything concrete about President Trump's career racism. This piece from The Atlantic does a nice job collecting examples throughout the decades: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/

BTW, I don't call Trump a racist as a shorthand to call his voters/supporters racist. I call Trump a racist because he is one. I very much doubt anyone on this board who supports him is a racist. Again, I understand that a great number of people who vote for him do so because their conscience is convicted that he is the best person to turn the tide against abortion. My concern is with those who cheerlead him in all things.

M. Staneck
That article is very telling about how deeply and long Donald Trump has been acting in a racist fashion, and how that has gained him the approval of conservatives in the Republican party. He is willing to say and do what more careful Republicans could not bring themselves to say or do.

Peace,
Michael

 New York City natives know first hand that Donald Trump managed his NYC real estate as a racist.  My dad, like many immigrants, eventually owned a few small NYC apartment buildings. He also earned a living painting apartments. Some of his buddies scraped floors, others did plumbing, still others did plumbing. He, like his fellow immigrants, rented to persons regardless of their race.

The fact that the large Trump Real Estate Empire did not rent to persons of color was well known among NYC landlords.

Marie Meyer   

Matt Hummel

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1057 on: February 08, 2020, 03:35:18 PM »

Me:
Sometimes the church is more than the magisterium.

No, actually it is not. At least not as you mean. The Church is the Magisterium and the Magisterium is the Church. When we as individuals wander away, Holy Mother Church never ceases to call us back, teach and admonish. I am sure you have any number friends and acquaintances who are good little House Catholics  But they are not larger than the Magisterium. They are detached from it. And, in so far as one willfully and intentionally does that, one is less Catholic than one thinks and/or claims.
Matt Hummel


ďThe chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.Ē

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Dave Likeness

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1058 on: February 08, 2020, 03:39:34 PM »
Marie Meyer, kindly sort this out for me.   Donald Trump was born in 1946 and you are older than he is.
How could your father and Donald Trump have been contemporaries in the NYC real estate business?

peter_speckhard

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1059 on: February 08, 2020, 03:52:32 PM »
A while back Pr. Speckhard said he's never seen anything concrete about President Trump's career racism. This piece from The Atlantic does a nice job collecting examples throughout the decades: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/

BTW, I don't call Trump a racist as a shorthand to call his voters/supporters racist. I call Trump a racist because he is one. I very much doubt anyone on this board who supports him is a racist. Again, I understand that a great number of people who vote for him do so because their conscience is convicted that he is the best person to turn the tide against abortion. My concern is with those who cheerlead him in all things.

M. Staneck
The article makes tremendous leaps. In 1973, people running real estate development for Trumpís firm engaged in informal redlining, ergo Trump is a racist?

Given that Iíve never seen Trump do anything racist, and given that he disavows racism, and given that all Republican candidates in my lifetime have been decried as racists by publications like The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and online places like Vox, and those claims have been bogus, what I would need in order to be convinced that Trump is a long time racist is evidence that Trump was was widely criticized for being racist in the decades before he became a Republican. Did President Clinton consider Trump to be a racist? Why it why not? Did Mike Bloomberg ever complain about Trumpís racism? Trump has been a public figure for many decades, and in my circles was generally ridiculed for his greed, opulence, immorality, crass showmanship, and self-absorption. By I never heard a word from anyone about his racism until he ran for president with an R after his name.

Peter- look at the full page ad Trump placed basically advocating for the judicial lynching of young men of color for a crime we now know they did not commit. He has had ample opportunity to walk that back, but in typical Trumpean fashion, he has refused. The man's got issues.
I never said he doesnít have issues. He doesnít walk anything back. Iíve never seen him call for anyone to be lynched for being persons of color. If he treated a black congressman the way he treats Nancy Pelosi, heíd be called racist. But it wouldnít be racism, it would be Trumpís other issues in play. The accusation of racism, the finding of it under every stone, it is all just too constantly politically convenient for me to accept it unless I see it for myself. And my guess is that people of color are going to vote for Trump in far greater numbers than theyíve voted for any pro-life candidate in a long, long time. Iíll concede that Trump is probably as racist as Romney and McCain.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1060 on: February 08, 2020, 04:07:17 PM »
Catholic politicians and others can be against abortion laws as they stand now all they want. But the truth is the American public, that is voters, (remember them?) favor the current laws concerning abortion.

I don't really think that polls bear that out. Current law is essentially "abortion legal under any circumstance." Most recent Gallup poll shows that position held by 25%.  Some 21% favor abortion illegal in all circumstances. The majority, 53%, say abortion should be legal only under certain circumstances. That group is a bit nebulous because different people would identify different circumstances, but when defined a little more closely, 39% said "legal in only a few cases" and 13% said "legal under most circumstances." Any way you cut it, a large majority--60%--say abortion should be legal in few or no circumstances. Hardly "the current laws concerning abortion."

Interestingly, according to Gallup, support for the most extreme pro-abortion position is at the lowest point since 2010, while support for "illegal in all circumstances" is at the highest point since 2009.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1061 on: February 08, 2020, 04:14:01 PM »


This whole "I pray for the president" and "real Christians support my policies" nonsense

While I agree that the latter is nonsense, I do not see any justifiable reason to assume that someone (including, but not limited to, Speaker Pelosi) saying "I pray for the president" should not be taken at face value. Who are you to say that this is nonsense? As a Roman Catholic (no judgment here on whether she is a "good" Catholic), she has been taught to pray for the president and other elected officials. She probably does so at mass every week. To suggest that you know the content of her prayers is, well, nonsense.

I pray for the president, whomever it is. I do not presume to tell God what I think he should do in the president's life; that's above my pay grade. I ask God to bless and guide the president, whomever he or she may be. That is the Christian's duty.

To suggest that a Christian is either simply lying when she or he says this, or to presume that the content of his or her prayers, is something politically nefarious is uncharitable in the extreme. The effect of such statements is to turn prayer into simply another political weapon.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Dan Fienen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1062 on: February 08, 2020, 04:15:19 PM »
But in Pr. Austin's world the majority of Americans hold the positions that he does it is an article of faith, and Catholics agree with him no matter what the, in his world, irrelevant Magisterium and Bishops say. And we are disrespectful for doubting him.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1063 on: February 08, 2020, 04:22:10 PM »


This whole "I pray for the president" and "real Christians support my policies" nonsense

While I agree that the latter is nonsense, I do not see any justifiable reason to assume that someone (including, but not limited to, Speaker Pelosi) saying "I pray for the president" should not be taken at face value. Who are you to say that this is nonsense? As a Roman Catholic (no judgment here on whether she is a "good" Catholic), she has been taught to pray for the president and other elected officials. She probably does so at mass every week. To suggest that you know the content of her prayers is, well, nonsense.

I pray for the president, whomever it is. I do not presume to tell God what I think he should do in the president's life; that's above my pay grade. I ask God to bless and guide the president, whomever he or she may be. That is the Christian's duty.

To suggest that a Christian is either simply lying when she or he says this, or to presume that the content of his or her prayers, is something politically nefarious is uncharitable in the extreme. The effect of such statements is to turn prayer into simply another political weapon.
You are likely right about Pelosi praying for the president, or at least we should likely take her at her word.


Every time I hear someone opposed to Trump piously intoning prayers for him, I can't help remembering the Rabbi of Anatevka being asked if there is a prayer for everything. Upon replying in the affirmative, he is challenged for a prayer for the Tsar. "May the Lord bless and keep the Tsar far from Anatevka."
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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David Garner

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #1064 on: February 08, 2020, 04:30:04 PM »


This whole "I pray for the president" and "real Christians support my policies" nonsense

While I agree that the latter is nonsense, I do not see any justifiable reason to assume that someone (including, but not limited to, Speaker Pelosi) saying "I pray for the president" should not be taken at face value. Who are you to say that this is nonsense? As a Roman Catholic (no judgment here on whether she is a "good" Catholic), she has been taught to pray for the president and other elected officials. She probably does so at mass every week. To suggest that you know the content of her prayers is, well, nonsense.

I pray for the president, whomever it is. I do not presume to tell God what I think he should do in the president's life; that's above my pay grade. I ask God to bless and guide the president, whomever he or she may be. That is the Christian's duty.

To suggest that a Christian is either simply lying when she or he says this, or to presume that the content of his or her prayers, is something politically nefarious is uncharitable in the extreme. The effect of such statements is to turn prayer into simply another political weapon.

You say it is uncharitable.  I say when someone says "I pray for the president every day" and "this is a very solemn, somber, occasion," and then hands out souvenir pens at the signing of the Articles of Impeachment, poses for photos, and rips up her copy the State of the Union address when the State of the Union speech is finished, skepticism is warranted.

I appreciate charity, and I do try to live by it.  But I see no need to take someone at face value when their actions so grossly contradict their words.  Nancy Pelosi may "pray for" the president in the same way that most Christians who use the traditional litanies do, granted.  But Nancy Pelosi wants nothing more than for Donald Trump to be ousted from his office, as her actions most clearly show.  She does not "pray for him" to succeed in any meaningful way.  She has shown by her actions that is the last thing she wants.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).