Author Topic: Impeachment Hearings  (Read 123885 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #870 on: January 31, 2020, 12:10:59 PM »
Peter writes:
There is zero actual evidence I've ever seen that Donald Trump is a racist in any meaningful sense of that word. He is obviously a racist in the ways the word gets tossed around in academia, by which virtually everyone is a racist. But that is irrelevant to rational people.
I comment:
I will not charge the President with being a racist. But I will say that his words give aid to and inspire those who are.

Peter writes:
To arrive at the conclusion that Trump is so racist he is practically a Nazi, you have to begin by accepting as irrefutable dogma the opinions about the U.S. and Western Civ. as taught in various "studies" courses on campus, namely, that our society is inherently racist, founded on racism, and therefore racist through and through. It is "really" racist even when it isn't outwardly racist. Capitalism is racism. Our grammar is racist. Our math classes are racist. Dress codes and expectations of punctuality and professionalism, use of Robert's Rules of Order, you name it-- it is all irredeemably racist. America is a racist, colonialist atrocity. Therefore, anyone who gets all "rah rah" for the U.S. must be cheering for racism. Waving an American flag, when done by a conservative, is a racist act.
I comment:
Hogwash. I do not contend this. And only the loony extremists do.

Peter writes:
Talking about how great America is can only be a celebration of racism. Donald Trump is the racist in chief because he promotes unapologetically what all the woke people say must be deconstructed and apologized for.
I comment:
See above.

Peter writes:
But as for him personally thinking white people are superior, being an anti-Semite, working to disadvantage minorities, or doing anything that even resembles real racism-- 100% of the actual evidence says Trump doesn't have a racist bone in his body.
I comment:
Nice dodge. I heard the recordings of his words in Iowa and thought he sounded like the Nazis in the 1930s, but instead of focusing on the Jews, he focuses on Democrats. Like Hitler he creates fear, and he directs that fear totally and viciously towards his opponents. No true "patriotism" here; those who oppose him are taking away what people love about America. And he says it over and over again and with vicious and gleeful voice. Wonder where he learned that?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #871 on: January 31, 2020, 12:13:55 PM »
If we’re using gym class analogies, it wasn’t a nice dodge. It was a rag-armed throw.

Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #872 on: January 31, 2020, 12:21:50 PM »
I spent most of my time in gym classes 65 years ago, running laps. I have no idea what a gym class dodge or a rag arm throw is. But don't bother explaining.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

James_Gale

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #873 on: January 31, 2020, 02:36:50 PM »
Peter writes:
There is zero actual evidence I've ever seen that Donald Trump is a racist in any meaningful sense of that word. He is obviously a racist in the ways the word gets tossed around in academia, by which virtually everyone is a racist. But that is irrelevant to rational people.
I comment:
I will not charge the President with being a racist. But I will say that his words give aid to and inspire those who are.

Peter writes:
To arrive at the conclusion that Trump is so racist he is practically a Nazi, you have to begin by accepting as irrefutable dogma the opinions about the U.S. and Western Civ. as taught in various "studies" courses on campus, namely, that our society is inherently racist, founded on racism, and therefore racist through and through. It is "really" racist even when it isn't outwardly racist. Capitalism is racism. Our grammar is racist. Our math classes are racist. Dress codes and expectations of punctuality and professionalism, use of Robert's Rules of Order, you name it-- it is all irredeemably racist. America is a racist, colonialist atrocity. Therefore, anyone who gets all "rah rah" for the U.S. must be cheering for racism. Waving an American flag, when done by a conservative, is a racist act.
I comment:
Hogwash. I do not contend this. And only the loony extremists do.

Peter writes:
Talking about how great America is can only be a celebration of racism. Donald Trump is the racist in chief because he promotes unapologetically what all the woke people say must be deconstructed and apologized for.
I comment:
See above.

Peter writes:
But as for him personally thinking white people are superior, being an anti-Semite, working to disadvantage minorities, or doing anything that even resembles real racism-- 100% of the actual evidence says Trump doesn't have a racist bone in his body.
I comment:
Nice dodge. I heard the recordings of his words in Iowa and thought he sounded like the Nazis in the 1930s, but instead of focusing on the Jews, he focuses on Democrats. Like Hitler he creates fear, and he directs that fear totally and viciously towards his opponents. No true "patriotism" here; those who oppose him are taking away what people love about America. And he says it over and over again and with vicious and gleeful voice. Wonder where he learned that?


Hilary Clinton consigned Trump supporters to her "basket of deplorables."  Democrats a few years back ran an ad portraying Paul Ryan shoving an elderly, wheel-chair bound woman off a cliff because.  The (false) argument was that he wanted to take Medicare away from senior citizens.  American the Beautiful played in the background of the ad.  The message was that Ryan and the Republicans wanted to take away something that people love about America.


I share your dislike of much of Donald Trump's tone and rhetoric.  Your particular critique, however, applies to an array of politicians in both parties.  It's not a noble approach to campaigning.  But it's a far cry indeed from Hitler's Germany.  And you know it.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #874 on: January 31, 2020, 03:25:44 PM »

Over the last four years, the rhetoric of leading Democrats has been inflammatory towards Trump, his supporters, and Republicans in general. There were suggestions from a Congress woman that Democratic supporters whenever they see a Cabinet official or Republican in public to gather a crowd and drive them from that place. Let them know that they are not welcome anywhere. Similar actions have happened and were urged.


Now, I will not go so far as to assert that Democrats have incited mob violence against the Trump administration, but I will say that their words give aid to and inspire those who might be inclined to violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.


And there has been violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 04:48:33 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Eileen Smith

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #875 on: January 31, 2020, 03:39:24 PM »
Trump isn't the first president to be compared to Hitler.  Ronald Reagan shared that comparison as did, more recently, Barak Obama.  I believe it was Mike Huckabee who said that Obama was leading Jews to the oven door (I paraphrase). Often throughout his presidency Obama was compared numerous times to Hitler and those who didn't agree, primarily Democrats, said that conservatives were over-wrought, over-reacting, just couldn't get over Obama's success in the election process.

And now we have Trump - also compared to Hitler.  I would say that those who do so are over-wrought, over-reacting, and we should move along the approval process for a drug to calm down those suffering from TDS.

But this is nothing to laugh about - or joke about.  I've read books about the Holocaust, I've seen documentaries and Hollywood movies, but one day I sat and spoke with a Holocaust survivor.  I still cannot grasp all she shared.  I'm not sure I'd have the strength to doso - to carry those memories into my 90's.  She was from a family of four.  When the Nazis came she was 13 and her brother 8.  He was too young to be useful.  He was shot on the spot.  Her parents lied and said she was 16 or else she would have met the same fate.  Her father was sent to one camp and she and her mother to another - for almost four years.  She watched atrocities such as soldiers raping, killing, and  urging dogs to kill women in the camp.  Her final six months began with a death march to a camp deep within the woods of Germany.  As women faltered, dogs were set on them, dogs trained to kill.  She had absolutely no dignity.  A shift made out of a rough material -- one shift for her entire time in the camp - was issued to her.  In four years she was not allowed to wear any undergarments.  Can you even imagine such evil!  Though she was stripped of so much, physically and emotionally, she survived to share her story - a story that needs to be told, especially now as we have so few survivors. 

To compare Trump or Obama or Reagan to Hitler is simply ignorance - ignorance of history and more importantly ignorance of the suffering of millions of Jews, suffering that we simply cannot fathom.    Evil or any of its synonyms is too merciful a word to use for Hitler.   For those on both sides of the political chasm let us not resort to accusations so vile.   To do so lessens the dignity that we must give to those who suffered at Hitler's hand.  We may not like Trump, some may hate him, but we can give thanks that we do not know what it means to have been a Jew in the 30's and 40's. 

D. Engebretson

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #876 on: January 31, 2020, 04:54:33 PM »
To compare Trump or Obama or Reagan to Hitler is simply ignorance - ignorance of history and more importantly ignorance of the suffering of millions of Jews, suffering that we simply cannot fathom.    Evil or any of its synonyms is too merciful a word to use for Hitler.   For those on both sides of the political chasm let us not resort to accusations so vile.   To do so lessens the dignity that we must give to those who suffered at Hitler's hand.  We may not like Trump, some may hate him, but we can give thanks that we do not know what it means to have been a Jew in the 30's and 40's.

It seems that when one makes this comparison it is for the intention of gaining some kind of reaction.  It's akin to throwing kerosene on a fire. The blaze looks more spectacular than the original fire.

Historical comparisons should always be done carefully or we risk either being anachronistic or unfair to the past or present.  There are always parallels, and sometimes they are closely related, but our previous presidents hardly rise to the level of tyrants and despots, and their actions hardly endanger the ultimate future of the free world.  There are simply too many checks and balances in the system.  It was designed that way.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dan Fienen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #877 on: January 31, 2020, 05:07:29 PM »

Historical parallels are always suspect but as a thought experiment, consider this. What would have happened to news outlets that commented upon the actions of Hitler or Stalin in Germany or the USSR the way that CNN, MSNBC, or even the major networks have about Trump? Fulminating in public speeches about how unfair the news media is hardly the same. What would have happened to opposition legislators who opposed and attempted to remove either Hitler or Stalin (or Mao or Pol Pot)? What likely would have happened to individuals who made public statements about them in their countries like Pr. Austin and many, many others have?


That doesn't meant that everything that Pres. Trump has done or said is copacetic. But this continual drum beat of how Trump is moving us into the kind of oppressive and totalitarian state that Nazi Germany was under Hitler or the USSR was under Stalin is way overblown.
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RDPreus

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #878 on: January 31, 2020, 05:23:35 PM »
Rev. Austin writes,  "I heard the recordings of [President Trump's] words in Iowa and thought he sounded like the Nazis in the 1930s, but instead of focusing on the Jews, he focuses on Democrats."  To quote R. Emmett Tyrrell's mother, "Why should we hunt Communists when there are so many Democrats running around loose?"  :)
 

David Garner

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #879 on: February 01, 2020, 07:36:52 AM »

Over the last four years, the rhetoric of leading Democrats has been inflammatory towards Trump, his supporters, and Republicans in general. There were suggestions from a Congress woman that Democratic supporters whenever they see a Cabinet official or Republican in public to gather a crowd and drive them from that place. Let them know that they are not welcome anywhere. Similar actions have happened and were urged.


Now, I will not go so far as to assert that Democrats have incited mob violence against the Trump administration, but I will say that their words give aid to and inspire those who might be inclined to violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.


And there has been violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.

Just yesterday, on a Christian FB page, I saw the comment "we have to remove Trump AND HIS SUPPORTERS" (emphasis mine).

Charming folks.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Michael Slusser

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #880 on: February 01, 2020, 11:06:48 AM »

Over the last four years, the rhetoric of leading Democrats has been inflammatory towards Trump, his supporters, and Republicans in general. There were suggestions from a Congress woman that Democratic supporters whenever they see a Cabinet official or Republican in public to gather a crowd and drive them from that place. Let them know that they are not welcome anywhere. Similar actions have happened and were urged.


Now, I will not go so far as to assert that Democrats have incited mob violence against the Trump administration, but I will say that their words give aid to and inspire those who might be inclined to violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.


And there has been violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.

Just yesterday, on a Christian FB page, I saw the comment "we have to remove Trump AND HIS SUPPORTERS" (emphasis mine).

Charming folks.
What do you expect from "human scum" who "hate America"? There is nothing Trump's opponents have called him that is worse than what he has called them. This is the post-2016 America. We are living in the Augean stables, and no Hercules has showed up yet.

Peace,
Michael
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David Garner

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #881 on: February 01, 2020, 11:24:38 AM »

Over the last four years, the rhetoric of leading Democrats has been inflammatory towards Trump, his supporters, and Republicans in general. There were suggestions from a Congress woman that Democratic supporters whenever they see a Cabinet official or Republican in public to gather a crowd and drive them from that place. Let them know that they are not welcome anywhere. Similar actions have happened and were urged.


Now, I will not go so far as to assert that Democrats have incited mob violence against the Trump administration, but I will say that their words give aid to and inspire those who might be inclined to violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.


And there has been violence against Republicans and Trump supporters.

Just yesterday, on a Christian FB page, I saw the comment "we have to remove Trump AND HIS SUPPORTERS" (emphasis mine).

Charming folks.
What do you expect from "human scum" who "hate America"? There is nothing Trump's opponents have called him that is worse than what he has called them. This is the post-2016 America. We are living in the Augean stables, and no Hercules has showed up yet.

Peace,
Michael

Granted.

My point is a lot of his supporters, who this person also wants to "remove" (what does that mean?  who can say?), do not refer to their perceived political opponents in such ways.  I haven't yet see anyone proposing to "remove" them (though I have seen some propose that those who promised to move to Canada may have missed their flights).

It's an escalation of problems that pre-exist for sure.  But it is, make no mistake, an escalation.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #882 on: February 01, 2020, 12:06:06 PM »
What did trump mean, when, at a dinner with a couple of gangsters,  he said of his ambassador to Ukraine “get rid of her. “
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Back home from Sioux City after three days and a pleasant reunion of the East High School class of - can you believe it! - 1959.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #883 on: February 01, 2020, 12:58:48 PM »
What did trump mean, when, at a dinner with a couple of gangsters,  he said of his ambassador to Ukraine “get rid of her. “

I'm sure you will tell us.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Impeachment Hearings
« Reply #884 on: February 01, 2020, 01:38:56 PM »
What did trump mean, when, at a dinner with a couple of gangsters,  he said of his ambassador to Ukraine “get rid of her. “

That statement could mean any number of things. Shall we assume that since it is Trump that we should assume, without any other evidence, not even her recent retirement, that he meant the worst possibility?
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