Poll

Choose one of the following options:

God created the world through the processes described by modern physicists and evolutionists
8 (53.3%)
God created the world in six days as described in Genesis
6 (40%)
The world has always existed
0 (0%)
The physical world does not literally exist but is only a product of God's mind
0 (0%)
There is no way of knowing whether or how God created the world
1 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc  (Read 5905 times)

ptmccain

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2007, 04:57:21 PM »
I note that the question was not answered:

Our Lord Christ accepted the Mosaic authorship of Genesis and regarded Adam and Eve as real, historic personages, similarly the Apostle St. Paul. How do we work our way past these realities, I wonder?


Still waiting for a response to that question.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2007, 05:15:04 PM »
Pastor McCain writes:
I note that the question was not answered:
Our Lord Christ accepted the Mosaic authorship of Genesis and regarded Adam and Eve as real, historic personages, similarly the Apostle St. Paul. How do we work our way past these realities, I wonder?
Still waiting for a response to that question.

I comment:
Here's the answer. I don't know. (I wonder if we know that Jesus was speaking of them as real persons or in some other fashion? )

ptmccain

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2007, 05:17:24 PM »
Here's the answer. I don't know. (I wonder if we know that Jesus was speaking of them as real persons or in some other fashion? )

I believe it would be in the best interest of the body of Christ to come to a firm conclusion on this key question before we toss out as "not historical" what the Lord Jesus Christ and his blessed Apostles regarded to be historically and factually true.

Charles_Austin

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2007, 05:35:58 PM »
Pastor McCain writes:
believe it would be in the best interest of the body of Christ to come to a firm conclusion on this key question before we toss out as "not historical" what the Lord Jesus Christ and his blessed Apostles regarded to be historically and factually true.

I comment:
And how might we know that precisely and without doubt or misinterpretation? From accounts passed through many human hands for decades before they were written down? From which manuscript, which century, which redaction, which translation? And I don't recall reading any poll or survey of the 12 about the historicity of Adam and Eve. And I'm not "tossing out" anything, except the view that the Bible is a history book or the transcription of a tape recording of what the Lord said.

EENGELBRECHT

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2007, 06:31:58 PM »
Graffiti from the physics department of a prestigious university:

And God said,
“div D = ρ
div B = 0
curl E = -dB/dt
curl H = dD/dt + J,”
and there was light.

These four equations are Maxwell's equations that, together, form a complete description of the production and interrelation of electric and magnetic fields.  Light is an electromagnetic phenomenon.  Perhaps what God did on the first day of creation was design and define what light would be.  Light sources came later.

Dan

It's all very essential and yet also mysterious, isn't it.

In Genesis light is linked with time, since the changing of the light is how we come to measure time ("evening and morning"; passing months and years also gaged by the light of the stars/seven visible planets). This connection appears again in the Sabbath day and yet again in the lampstand of the tabernacle with the seven lights (cf seven days of the week). The connections between creation, observation, and Israel's worship were seamless.

God's order is wonderous.

In Christ,
EE

EENGELBRECHT

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2007, 06:42:09 PM »
But neither do we give scripture authority over physics, since it is not intended to be a science text

Charles, I think this is a good point. Genesis certainly is not a science text. And yet it is not "unscientific" or necessarily in conflict with science. Folks report on what they observe, which is the essence of scientific method. For example, Genesis 1 classifies animals on the basis of locomotion and environment. Our modern standard of classification (from Linneus [sp?], who happened to be a nice Swedish Lutheran boy) is based on anatomy. Though the approaches are different, they come about in the same ways: observe and report.

In Christ,
EE

Charles_Austin

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2007, 06:50:34 PM »
Yes, indeed. And our observation shows that the Genesis account tain't "history" as we understand history.

EENGELBRECHT

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2007, 06:54:35 PM »
I note that the question was not answered:

Our Lord Christ accepted the Mosaic authorship of Genesis and regarded Adam and Eve as real, historic personages, similarly the Apostle St. Paul. How do we work our way past these realities, I wonder?


Still waiting for a response to that question.

Below is what I pulled on reports of Moses being cited by Jesus in one Gospel. Sometimes the conversation is prompted by other Jewish teachers. But sometimes the Evangelist presents Jesus just quoting Moses (seems like a good Rabbinic thing to do) or even talking with Moses!:

Mark 1:44
and said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Mark 7:10
For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’
Mark 9:4
And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
Mark 9:5
And Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi,[1] it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
Mark 10:3
He answered them, “What did Moses command you?”
Mark 10:4
They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away.”
Mark 12:19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man
Mark 12:26
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

Seems to be a common theme in this shortest Evangel, which is regarded as one of the earliest reports of Jesus' life. Could we say, as is demonstrated by contemporary Jewish literature, that Jesus believed in Mosaic authorship and taught it much like the other Rabbis? That would fit the first century context well.

In Christ,
EE

EENGELBRECHT

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2007, 07:20:45 PM »
Yes, indeed. And our observation shows that the Genesis account tain't "history" as we understand history.

I would agree that Genesis 1 is certainly not history as we would report it today but that is a matter of genre. It also appears to be, as pointed out earlier, a matter of revelation (the writer did not observed the events but reports about them based on sources available to him). But neither of these factors makes Genesis 1 ahistorical, just as the differences in ideals/standards of science do not make Genesis 1 unscientific.

In Christ,
EE

peter_speckhard

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2007, 12:19:15 AM »
Yes, indeed. And our observation shows that the Genesis account tain't "history" as we understand history.
How do we observe that?

janielou13

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2007, 09:05:36 AM »
"Our Lord Christ accepted the Mosaic authorship of Genesis and regarded Adam and Eve as real, historic personages, similarly the Apostle St. Paul. How do we work our way past these realities, I wonder?


Still waiting for a response to that question.",,,,,,,,,,,,, St Augustine had no problem answering the question,,, check him out.

JEdwards

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2007, 09:15:21 AM »
I note that the question was not answered:

Our Lord Christ accepted the Mosaic authorship of Genesis and regarded Adam and Eve as real, historic personages, similarly the Apostle St. Paul. How do we work our way past these realities, I wonder?


Still waiting for a response to that question.

Below is what I pulled on reports of Moses being cited by Jesus in one Gospel. Sometimes the conversation is prompted by other Jewish teachers. But sometimes the Evangelist presents Jesus just quoting Moses (seems like a good Rabbinic thing to do) or even talking with Moses!:

Mark 1:44
and said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to them.”
Mark 7:10
For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’
Mark 9:4
And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
Mark 9:5
And Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi,[1] it is good that we are here. Let us make three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”
Mark 10:3
He answered them, “What did Moses command you?”
Mark 10:4
They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away.”
Mark 12:19 “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man
Mark 12:26
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

Seems to be a common theme in this shortest Evangel, which is regarded as one of the earliest reports of Jesus' life. Could we say, as is demonstrated by contemporary Jewish literature, that Jesus believed in Mosaic authorship and taught it much like the other Rabbis? That would fit the first century context well.

In Christ,
EE


Of course, none of these citations refers to the Book of Genesis, let alone the first chapter of Genesis.  Much of the text of Exodus through Deuteronomy is explicitly attributed to Moses in the text itself.  I am not aware of any Scriptural text attributing to Moses anything written in the Book of Genesis.

Jon Edwards

EENGELBRECHT

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2007, 11:11:36 AM »
Could we say, as is demonstrated by contemporary Jewish literature, that Jesus believed in Mosaic authorship and taught it much like the other Rabbis? That would fit the first century context well.

In Christ,
EE


Of course, none of these citations refers to the Book of Genesis, let alone the first chapter of Genesis.  Much of the text of Exodus through Deuteronomy is explicitly attributed to Moses in the text itself.  I am not aware of any Scriptural text attributing to Moses anything written in the Book of Genesis.

Jon Edwards

As noted, the Rabbis attributed Genesis to Moses along with Ex through Dt (persistently called "the Law of Moses"; this tradition is actually well rooted centuries earlier in the OT). Jesus stood in this tradition as the statements attributed to Him show. The following includes explicit mention of "the Law of Moses" in teaching attributed to Jesus:

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:44
Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
John 7:22
Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.
John 7:23
If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well?

Every Jewish school boy, including Jesus, knew and believed that the first books of Scripture were attributed to Moses.
In Christ,
EE

ptmccain

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2007, 11:15:14 AM »
Still waiting for a response to that question.",,,,,,,,,,,,, St Augustine had no problem answering the question,,, check him out.

Citation please.

janielou13

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Re: Dr. Schweitzer's remarkable discovery: T-Rex Blood etc
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2007, 01:30:47 PM »
"Citation please."

St. Augustine is not Pieper and not amenable to proof texting,,,,,, start with the Confessions, then go on to City of God and then his OT commentaries on Genesis and the Creation narritives in Psalms.  I've contract typed enough papers to know this material is covered in Sem, it's not really obtuse.