Memorials Committee Tries to Avoid Trainwreck

[ptmccain]

As greatly as I might disagree with Charles Austin many times and as sympathetic as I have been often to what ptmccain (Paul?) often writes about theology... there is something, maybe privately certainly publicly, poisoned about the e-air these days on ALPB Form online discussion.  Here I wrestle because this sounds xenophobic, but has there been a whole lot of new names/voices in the last few months get very active at least on the conservative side?  The more liberal side seems to have the same old couple of names.   Is there any sense in which the play has developed... let’s see if we can win by piling on people rather than tackling issues?    I said it a few weeks ago before I was on a week’s vacation and having returned and just quickly read and scanned scores of postings...  camps have become fortresses, discussion points shaped into missile heads lobbed...   And there are also just too many now even to read, topics and postings on the topics...  maybe this one also... a critical mass is forming...  and animosity begets animosity, I feel it now as a pox on everybody....  Someone advised that if we wait and ignore, some of the gore will shrink away...  But then I/we have lost a thoughtful form meanwhile.     Harvey Mozolak

Harvey, your sense is one I share-- the two conventions happening in the same summer, plus a lot of new people here lately (which is good), plus a lot of contentious issues have made for a tremendous amount of honest, substantive and often pointed discussion here, but it has a tendency to become nasty at times. This turns off the lurkers, new folks, and people who might want to post something but don't want to get into a heated argument. So, sarcasm when it is all in good fun, but otherwise respectful disagreement. My ability to keep my new moderator powers from going to my head is being sorely tested as I'm in a bad mood anyway, having lost five consecutive family games of CandyLand after playing on a new board in which all the stuff is renamed from when I was a kid (which grinds my conservative gears), not once drawing Queen Frostine, and enduring a two-year-old who has somehow learned to gloat. Stupid game, it's all luck anyway...   

Losing at Candyland is indeed a crushing blow to one's sense of self-worth, but you can always project the fatherly, "Of course I let you win" smile.

[Maryland Brian]

The churchwide assembly has no constitutional role to play in any disciplinary action. The very most they could do would be to express their disapproval, but that isn't likely to happen.

  Coming home from a hospital visit this afternoon another thought struck me: Symbolic statements (as seemingly intended by the on-site communion service) also have micro communication aspects.  I'm thinking the real damage will not be limited to this assembly, but to the relationships within the HOB.  What message will be left with the retiring bishop of the Atlanta area?  Or what will be the state of  relationship between Bishop Payne and the newly elected one?  Bishop Payne's actions are not limited to simple support of a recently defrocked pastor.  She is communicating a slap across the face to the Bishop who felt compelled to file that disciplinary action and who no doubt endured the kind and gentle ministrations of the advocates. 

  This is exactly the same trajectory we have observed in TEC - broken relationships at the core leadership level of their church.  And with Bishop Payne's public action, it will signal we are on the very same course.  I am sure no disciplinary action will be filed against her.  OTOH, I would think even the most causal observer would have to agree her actions will negatively impact relationships within the HOB.

And maybe that's the point.  It doesn't matter who gets hurt as long as the advocates win.

Maryland Brian

[scott3]

I am sure no disciplinary action will be filed against her. 

Just since I don't know, how would one go about filing for disciplinary action against a bishop in the ELCA?  Can a congregation or a pastor do it?

[Richard Johnson]

I am sure no disciplinary action will be filed against her. 

Just since I don't know, how would one go about filing for disciplinary action against a bishop in the ELCA?  Can a congregation or a pastor do it?

It appears to me that charges could be filed by ten pastors on the roster of that bishop's synod, or by the presiding bishop.

Ain't gonna happen.

[Maryland Brian]

It appears to me that charges could be filed by ten pastors on the roster of that bishop's synod, or by the presiding bishop.

Ain't gonna happen.

 Filing charges against one's bishop.... I think we'd call that a career ender.  Hmm .. what about a group of retired bishops?

MD Brian

[Richard Johnson]

It appears to me that charges could be filed by ten pastors on the roster of that bishop's synod, or by the presiding bishop.

Ain't gonna happen.

 Filing charges against one's bishop.... I think we'd call that a career ender.  Hmm .. what about a group of retired bishops?

MD Brian

Nope. Only if they are on that synod's roster.

[navyman]

Were I a gambling man, I would bet a dinner at a Chicago steakhouse that there is a strong effort to bring those memorials to the floor of the Assembly.

I wish it would Charles, and be done with it once an for all.  Then we can all answer, our we for Scripture and the true teachings of God's Word, or are we just going to throw our arms up and say Scripture doesn't apply to us, as we have done before, with CCM, as well as the Augsburg Confession.

As Luther stated, we base every doctrine on Scripture proofs.  Where is the Scripture proofs for these actions?  I just wish they would put it up for a ChurchWide Vote period, World Wide, and be done with it.  I think the whole issue would be dropped period.  However, this will never happened, the whole issue has gone beyond reason!

There is nothing in Scripture that supports going against Scripture, and its teachings, no matter how enlightened a person is.  Get Along Faithfully, correct - Love the Sinner, hate the sin!  Be a repentant Sinner, or an Unrepentant Sinner, be ungoldy and immoral, or repentant and turn away from immorality, and perversion!

Don Whitbeck

[Deb_H.]

Were I a gambling man, I would bet a dinner at a Chicago steakhouse that there is a strong effort to bring those memorials to the floor of the Assembly.

I wish it would Charles, and be done with it once an for all. 

When those memorials come to the floor in Chicago next week (and they will, at least one if not all three), it would certainly be nice if the assembly could vote on them and "be done with it once an[d] for all."  That will happen only if the assembly votes to bless same sex unions and ordain practicing homosexuals.  Anything short of that, and especially any sort of no vote, will just cause them to ramp up for the next assembly. 

Interesting thing in assembly votes -- a yes is a yes, and there's no going back to review it afterward (we voted, and it's a done deal, lets move on!), but a no is never truly heard as a no, only a "not this time."  Things that are voted down can always come back again, and do, and this one always will, until there is a yes vote.  They've said as much themselves.  So now or later, there will be a  yes on this issue.  The only hope for the ELCA is that before that happens, the assembly first votes to give congregations and synods the ability to ratify any constitutional changes made by the churchwide assembly (something they've already said no to several times, because the congregations might "get it wrong"). 

Debbie

[ptmccain]

Bishops are called to lead, not to stand by and "moderate" floor debates. If Bishop Hanson is in fact opposed to the ordination of homosexuals and marriage of the same, or, he should boldly call for it. I'm not impressed by the game-playing and posturing that takes the form of "we need to agree to disagree" which is simply a way to push the issue ahead that you are favor or, but don't have the courage to speak for.

The pro-homosexual forces should be invited, then made, to leave the ELCA and found their own organization where they can practice whatever they wish.

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor McCain writes:
The pro-homosexual forces should be invited, then made, to leave the ELCA and found their own organization where they can practice whatever they wish.

I comment:
That is not the way we do things in the ELCA. We even have people in the ELCA who are still "Missourian" in their outlook on some things. We do not make them leave.

[Eric_Swensson]

Pastor McCain writes:
The pro-homosexual forces should be invited, then made, to leave the ELCA and found their own organization where they can practice whatever they wish.

I comment:
That is not the way we do things in the ELCA. We even have people in the ELCA who are still "Missourian" in their outlook on some things. We do not make them leave.

That is right, the ELCA does not make anyone leave, people do it on their own:

 "ELCA Membership Drops 1.6 Percent to 4.8 Million in 2006"

(http://www.elca.org/ScriptLib/CO/ELCA_News/encArticleList.asp?article=3641).

The WordAlone Board site has someone's analysis with some charts http://www.wordalone.org/docs/time-for-change.shtml showing how the exodus picked up steam under Mark Hanson.

BTW, Charles, could you explain your words, "We even have people in the ELCA who are still "Missourian" in their outlook on some things. We do not make them leave." What does it mean "to be Missourian in outlook"?

[Kurt Strause]

Interesting thing in assembly votes -- a yes is a yes, and there's no going back to review it afterward (we voted, and it's a done deal, lets move on!), but a no is never truly heard as a no, only a "not this time." 

Not quite true. CCM was definitely a yes. Two years later we passed a "yes, but..." A characteristic of our polity, for better or worse,is that each biennial is a self-contained and essentially autonomous entity. The next assembly can, if votes are sufficient, overturn a previous assembly's action.

Kurt Strause

[Charles_Austin]

Eric asks:
What does it mean "to be Missourian in outlook"?

I answer:
It means when they look out their windows, they see a river running between Iowa and Nebraska. 









There are people in the ELCA, some of them with roots in the LC-MS, who tend to view certain things more like the way those things are viewed in that church body than in the ALC, LCA or ELCA. But surely you knew that.

[Richard Johnson]

There are people in the ELCA, some of them with roots in the LC-MS, who tend to view certain things more like the way those things are viewed in that church body than in the ALC, LCA or ELCA. But surely you knew that.

Gee, and I've always been under the impression that the "former Missourians" in the ELCA have often been among the most activist in their pushing for change in a whole variety of areas.

[Charles_Austin]

Maryland Brian writes (re the concern about the alleged violations about to be committed by Bishop Payne):
Filing charges against one's bishop.... I think we'd call that a career ender.

I comment:
But if it's for the sake of the true Gospel, would this matter? Do we value our careers above the truth?