Memorials Committee Tries to Avoid Trainwreck

[Harvey_Mozolak]

well, Charles, that depends on the translation/paraphrase you are using of Willy...  some feel that the term SLIP today has slide in sense with some feminine undercurrents, and would much prefer the more modern and loose translation, especially those who have some knowledge in the NT canon and enjoy the way it often slips in the way it translates OT verses....   also noticed that you used double quote marks and the proper English fashion is single with double within, this side of the pond we use double, single within...   always an American English writer... duh...  Harvey Mozolak

It's "cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war." from Julius Caesar by William Shakespeare.

CMA
Once an English major, always an English major.

[BeornBjornson]

From one English major to another: thank you Pastor Austin for the correction.  Of course, I was already taking liberties by exchanging "church conflict" for "war" but nonetheless I tip my hat to your superior recollection of the Bard. 

Ken Kimball 

[ptmccain]

Plus, if you are not confident of the outcome of a vote, it is always better to delay it and build more support for it. In my view of things, the conclusion on this issue is inevitable and, as I've said before, by virtue of full communion with church bodies that have an "open" position on homosexuality in the ranks of its clergy, the ELCA is already supporting the position. After all the agreement with the ECUSA requires the ELCA to receive all the ECUSA bishops as fully legitimate, so, de facto, the ELCA already has its first "openly" homosexual bishop, boyfriend and all.

[BeornBjornson]

Paul,
The "inevitable" thing is Jesus' victory and final appearing.  I'm sick to death of being told (and I'm not jumping on you here) that the pro-glbt thing is inevitable for the ELCA (and not just the ELCA but for our whole culture, the world, blah, blah).   I seem to recall that the 1,000 Year Reich whose victory was "inevitable" lasted 13 years.  Then there was the inevitable Marxist victory of the dictatorship of the proletariat blah blah blah...the Wall came down.  There were times when a Confederate victory and continuation and expansion of slavery seemed inevitable too...then came Grant and Sherman.  Writing as an orthodox-conservative ELCA pastor, I am not conceding inevitable nothing to the revisionists.  Seems to me that Churchill had some pertinent things to say about those calling for surrender to the inevitable.  Sometimes you just have to keep on fighting...better to fail in a cause that will ultimately succeed than to succeed in a cause that will ultimately fail. 

Even more to the point: just how inevitable did Arianism appear as the future of the Church in the 4th century?  We need to follow Athanasius' example and be prepared to persevere for the long term.  There have been other dark times for the church. 

Pastor Ken Kimball
Member of Lutheran Coalition for Reform Steering Committee

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor McCain writes:
n my view of things, the conclusion on this issue is inevitable and, as I've said before, by virtue of full communion with church bodies that have an "open" position on homosexuality in the ranks of its clergy, the ELCA is already supporting the position.

I comment:
You are wrong. The fellowship agreement does not bind us or them to accept the disciplinary procedures of the other church body except when an ordained person in that church body receives a call in the other. Please have the courtesy not to declare your "view of things" on our ecumenical agreements when it is clear you do not understand them and willfully misinterpret them.

Pastor McCain continues the misinterpretation and error:
After all the agreement with the ECUSA requires the ELCA to receive all the ECUSA bishops as fully legitimate, so, de facto, the ELCA already has its first "openly" homosexual bishop, boyfriend and all.

I explain:
No. We have no standing to question the legitimacy of Bishop Robinson's ministry within the Episcopal Church. But, according to our present rules, he would not be able to receive a call to an ELCA parish. Your ignorance of our ecumenical documents and how they were developed and are practiced is so stunning that I suggest you restrain your desire to interpret our documents to us and to others here. And the snippy comment, "boyfriend and all," is another example of how you are unable to engage in polite conversation on this subject.

[ptmccain]

Paul,
The "inevitable" thing is Jesus' victory and final appearing.  I'm sick to death of being told (and I'm not jumping on you here) that the pro-glbt thing is inevitable for the ELCA (and not just the ELCA but for our whole culture, the world, blah, blah).   I seem to recall that the 1,000 Year Reich whose victory was "inevitable" lasted 13 years.  Then there was the inevitable Marxist victory of the dictatorship of the proletariat blah blah blah...the Wall came down.  There were times when a Confederate victory and continuation and expansion of slavery seemed inevitable too...then came Grant and Sherman.  Writing as an orthodox-conservative ELCA pastor, I am not conceding inevitable nothing to the revisionists.  Seems to me that Churchill had some pertinent things to say about those calling for surrender to the inevitable.  Sometimes you just have to keep on fighting...better to fail in a cause that will ultimately succeed than to succeed in a cause that will ultimately fail. 

Even more to the point: just how inevitable did Arianism appear as the future of the Church in the 4th century?  We need to follow Athanasius' example and be prepared to persevere for the long term.  There have been other dark times for the church. 

Pastor Ken Kimball
Member of Lutheran Coalition for Reform Steering Committee

Ken, well said! I stand corrected. You are right that it is tempting always to assume that nothing will improve or get better. Thanks for your post. And blessings on your efforts!

[ptmccain]

One wonders though if the churchwide assembly will take any disciplinary action against the bishops of the ELCA, like Payne, who are in violation of its position on same-sex unions, etc. It seems ELCA bishops are increasingly willing to take actions in spite of what the Assembly does, or does not, do.

[Gladfelteri]

One wonders though if the churchwide assembly will take any disciplinary action against the bishops of the ELCA, like Payne, who are in violation of its position on same-sex unions, etc. It seems ELCA bishops are increasingly willing to take actions in spite of what the Assembly does, or does not, do.

As an observer, I wonder if there is any pressure (perhaps that is too strong a word) - an impetus  -  from inside or outside the ELCA - to get in line with the position on openly gay clergy and same-sex unions held by Churches with which the ELCA is in full communion / pulpit and altar fellowship (like TEC and the USS) in order to preserve or at least to put as few strains as possible on those  full communion agreements?  That is, could "loyalty and solidarity" factor in here below the surface in addition to the convictions of many in the ELCA who are convinced that what TEC and the UCC has done and are doing in this area are correct?

[ptmccain]

One wonders though if the churchwide assembly will take any disciplinary action against the bishops of the ELCA, like Payne, who are in violation of its position on same-sex unions, etc. It seems ELCA bishops are increasingly willing to take actions in spite of what the Assembly does, or does not, do.

As an observer, I wonder if there is any pressure (perhaps that is too strong a word) - an impetus  -  from inside or outside the ELCA - to get in line with the position on openly gay clergy and same-sex unions held by Churches with which the ELCA is in full communion / pulpit and altar fellowship (like TEC and the USS) in order to preserve or at least to put as few strains as possible on those  full communion agreements?  That is, could "loyalty and solidarity" factor in here below the surface in addition to the convictions of many in the ELCA who are convinced that what TEC and the UCC has done and are doing in this area are correct?

You may be right Irl.

[Maryland Brian]

Even more to the point: just how inevitable did Arianism appear as the future of the Church in the 4th century?  We need to follow Athanasius' example and be prepared to persevere for the long term.  There have been other dark times for the church. 

  Point well taken.  Look at the leadership that's being provided by the Orthodox, RC and Global South Anglicans during these days.

I think we can also watch how we define "the church" during these times.  Perhaps we may discover "the church" is much larger than the ELCA and, as such, time will tell if that particular institutional expression will be remembered as part of the problem or part of the solution.

Maryland Brian

[peter_speckhard]

The purpose of the private message system regarding personal issues is not to attack anyone. Intense disagreements and personal arguments have a better chance of being resolved in private and do not need to derail the discussions. It is not fair to post the content of private messages here without getting both parties' consent and/or running it past the moderator. If you want the moderator to do something, please ask directly via the private messaging system rather than publicly. I've already seen some of these exchanges in that way.

I've removed two recent post that disclosed, in a very selective and misleading way, the contents of private exchanges via the personal messaging system.

[Harvey_Mozolak]

As greatly as I might disagree with Charles Austin many times and as sympathetic as I have been often to what ptmccain (Paul?) often writes about theology... there is something, maybe privately certainly publicly, poisoned about the e-air these days on ALPB Form online discussion.  Here I wrestle because this sounds xenophobic, but has there been a whole lot of new names/voices in the last few months get very active at least on the conservative side?  The more liberal side seems to have the same old couple of names.   Is there any sense in which the play has developed... let’s see if we can win by piling on people rather than tackling issues?    I said it a few weeks ago before I was on a week’s vacation and having returned and just quickly read and scanned scores of postings...  camps have become fortresses, discussion points shaped into missile heads lobbed...   And there are also just too many now even to read, topics and postings on the topics...  maybe this one also... a critical mass is forming...  and animosity begets animosity, I feel it now as a pox on everybody....  Someone advised that if we wait and ignore, some of the gore will shrink away...  But then I/we have lost a thoughtful form meanwhile.     Harvey Mozolak

[Richard Johnson]

One wonders though if the churchwide assembly will take any disciplinary action against the bishops of the ELCA, like Payne, who are in violation of its position on same-sex unions, etc. It seems ELCA bishops are increasingly willing to take actions in spite of what the Assembly does, or does not, do.

The churchwide assembly has no constitutional role to play in any disciplinary action. The very most they could do would be to express their disapproval, but that isn't likely to happen.

[peter_speckhard]

As greatly as I might disagree with Charles Austin many times and as sympathetic as I have been often to what ptmccain (Paul?) often writes about theology... there is something, maybe privately certainly publicly, poisoned about the e-air these days on ALPB Form online discussion.  Here I wrestle because this sounds xenophobic, but has there been a whole lot of new names/voices in the last few months get very active at least on the conservative side?  The more liberal side seems to have the same old couple of names.   Is there any sense in which the play has developed... let’s see if we can win by piling on people rather than tackling issues?    I said it a few weeks ago before I was on a week’s vacation and having returned and just quickly read and scanned scores of postings...  camps have become fortresses, discussion points shaped into missile heads lobbed...   And there are also just too many now even to read, topics and postings on the topics...  maybe this one also... a critical mass is forming...  and animosity begets animosity, I feel it now as a pox on everybody....  Someone advised that if we wait and ignore, some of the gore will shrink away...  But then I/we have lost a thoughtful form meanwhile.     Harvey Mozolak

Harvey, your sense is one I share-- the two conventions happening in the same summer, plus a lot of new people here lately (which is good), plus a lot of contentious issues have made for a tremendous amount of honest, substantive and often pointed discussion here, but it has a tendency to become nasty at times. This turns off the lurkers, new folks, and people who might want to post something but don't want to get into a heated argument. So, sarcasm when it is all in good fun, but otherwise respectful disagreement. My ability to keep my new moderator powers from going to my head is being sorely tested as I'm in a bad mood anyway, having lost five consecutive family games of CandyLand after playing on a new board in which all the stuff is renamed from when I was a kid (which grinds my conservative gears), not once drawing Queen Frostine, and enduring a two-year-old who has somehow learned to gloat. Stupid game, it's all luck anyway...   

[scott3]

Stupid game, it's all luck anyway...   

Keep telling yourself that.  My nemesis is Cooties...