Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop

[John_Hannah]

Interesting that the ELCA, LCMS, NALC and WELS have all had conventions, this year. A comparison of the four would probably make a good Forum article (just sayin').

We'll have reports on ELCA, LCMS and NALC. We didn't have anyone at WELS. A comparison would be interesting, but hard to do unless someone went to all of them, and I wouldn't as that of anyone.

Steve Ames gave us substantial and regular reports on the WELS convention. They were as good as any from those assigned. Glad to we got them.

Peace, JOHN

[Paul O Malley]

Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?

The NALC didn't receive the historic episcopate from the ELCA.

spt+

As I understand it for the historic episcopate to be present in the NALC it wouldn't need to have come from the ELCA. Isn't it preserved through bishops who are in the chain?

[Brian Stoffregen]

So High Church, Low Church and I want to say broadchurch, but that really isn't it, more like intellectual church.  Two flavors of aesthetics/church practice and one that puts the emphasis on the intellectual side.

Many of the congregations I've either been a member of, a visitor to, or just acquainted with in passing have multiple worship services every Sunday morning (except some churches drop to one service in the Summer). One of the two is more or less "high" church, and the other is more or less "low" church. Any emphasis or lack thereof on the "intellectual" tends to be transparent to the pew-sitters.

I'll admit, I've never been in close enough geographic proximity to any NALC congregation on any Sunday morning to visit one. And I would want to do so if the opportunity ever presents itself. There is a slim chance my wife and I will be relocating to Boca Raton, Florida, within a year or two. Maybe I'll find one there. I haven't looked yet, it's too far distant a concern at this time.

Traditionally speaking: "high church" meant a sung mass. "Low church" was a spoken mass. All the extra pomp and ceremony or lack of it isn't what made it high or low. Although the big city parishes that could afford the musicians for the sung mass tended to add more ceremonial stuff. The small country parishes may not have had any musicians. The tradition I grew up with where the pastor spoke his parts and the congregation sung their responses was a mixed up mass. Th ALC wasn't much into liturgical tradition.

[Brian Stoffregen]

Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?

The NALC didn't receive the historic episcopate from the ELCA.

spt+

As I understand it for the historic episcopate to be present in the NALC it wouldn't need to have come from the ELCA. Isn't it preserved through bishops who are in the chain?

I was wondering if they received it when they were installed as ELCA bishops; then took it to the NALC. However, it is true that the NALC could receive it from other Lutheran bodies who have it or from Episcopal priests. (Although, are they in full-communion with the Episcopal Church?)

[George Erdner]

So High Church, Low Church and I want to say broadchurch, but that really isn't it, more like intellectual church.  Two flavors of aesthetics/church practice and one that puts the emphasis on the intellectual side.

Many of the congregations I've either been a member of, a visitor to, or just acquainted with in passing have multiple worship services every Sunday morning (except some churches drop to one service in the Summer). One of the two is more or less "high" church, and the other is more or less "low" church. Any emphasis or lack thereof on the "intellectual" tends to be transparent to the pew-sitters.

I'll admit, I've never been in close enough geographic proximity to any NALC congregation on any Sunday morning to visit one. And I would want to do so if the opportunity ever presents itself. There is a slim chance my wife and I will be relocating to Boca Raton, Florida, within a year or two. Maybe I'll find one there. I haven't looked yet, it's too far distant a concern at this time.

Traditionally speaking: "high church" meant a sung mass. "Low church" was a spoken mass. All the extra pomp and ceremony or lack of it isn't what made it high or low. Although the big city parishes that could afford the musicians for the sung mass tended to add more ceremonial stuff. The small country parishes may not have had any musicians. The tradition I grew up with where the pastor spoke his parts and the congregation sung their responses was a mixed up mass. Th ALC wasn't much into liturgical tradition.

Yes, I know. That's what I was referring to.

[Steven Tibbetts]

I was wondering if they received it when they were installed as ELCA bishops; then took it to the NALC. However, it is true that the NALC could receive it from other Lutheran bodies who have it or from Episcopal priests. (Although, are they in full-communion with the Episcopal Church?)

The retired ELCA bishops who later joined the NALC were all installed prior to CCM.  Episcopal priests do not pass on Apostolic Succession via the Historic Episcopate.  The NALC doesn't have a full-communion agreement with TEC; perhaps you can imagine that the TEC's gay bishops, who also predate the NALC's formation, might be an impediment to that.  They do have a close relationship with the Anglican Church in North America, but there has been no declaration of full communion.  No ACNA Bishops, or Lutherans Bishops in Apostolic Succession, participated in the laying on of hands at +Spring's or (to the best of my knowlegde) +Bradosky's installations.  Of those laying hands on +Selbo, only Bishop Alex Mkumbo, of the Central Diocese in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania, would be in succession.

Pax, Steven+

[Charles Austin]

And when the romanticizing about that pleasantly symbolic but mythical and meaningless hand-to-head “succession” is set aside, no one cares.

[Gary Hatcher]

And when the romanticizing about that pleasantly symbolic but mythical and meaningless hand-to-head “succession” is set aside, no one cares.

Well, Charles, some people do care, you may not and that is your right, but to say 'no one cares' is not charitable.

[John_Hannah]

I was wondering if they received it when they were installed as ELCA bishops; then took it to the NALC. However, it is true that the NALC could receive it from other Lutheran bodies who have it or from Episcopal priests. (Although, are they in full-communion with the Episcopal Church?)

The retired ELCA bishops who later joined the NALC were all installed prior to CCM.  Episcopal priests do not pass on Apostolic Succession via the Historic Episcopate.  The NALC doesn't have a full-communion agreement with TEC; perhaps you can imagine that the TEC's gay bishops, who also predate the NALC's formation, might be an impediment to that.  They do have a close relationship with the Anglican Church in North America, but there has been no declaration of full communion.  No ACNA Bishops, or Lutherans Bishops in Apostolic Succession, participated in the laying on of hands at +Spring's or (to the best of my knowlegde) +Bradosky's installations.  Of those laying hands on +Selbo, only Bishop Alex Mkumbo, of the Central Diocese in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania, would be in succession.

Pax, Steven+

Then none of the NALC bishops are in historic succession? Right?

Peace, JOHN

[Mike in Pennsylvania]

My memory may be hazy, but I think there was an ACNA bishop involved in Bishop Bradosky's installation.
Personally, I don't worry too much about whether any of our bishops are in apostolic succession.  They were all legitimately elected and installed.

[Charles Austin]

Actually, Gary Hatcher, I’m in favor of the historic succession of the episcopacy. And I know some other people care about it. But, in my not so humble opinion, Not very many people. And given the things that the church faces today, I can’t get very excited about this hand to head romanticism.

[John_Hannah]

My memory may be hazy, but I think there was an ACNA bishop involved in Bishop Bradosky's installation.
Personally, I don't worry too much about whether any of our bishops are in apostolic succession.  They were all legitimately elected and installed.

I believe that there must be three other bishops (who were ordained in succession themselves) to make it "in historic succession."   

Peace, JOHN

[Dave Benke]

Characterizing the "two" streams of the NALC as a "word and sacrament group" and a "Word of God group" with a "more pietistic faith" misses what exactly divides the NALC and mischaracterizes both positions. Everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about both word and sacrament, just like everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about the importance of the bible. Locating the divisions in the NALC requires more nuance than this.

Where do you locate them?

Dave Benke

I think there're at least three: the evangelical catholics, the evangelicals, and the confessionalists.

Boy, that sounds familiar. I'd say it's the same in the LCMS, too, and also with a lot of nuance.

Interesting that the ELCA, LCMS, NALC and WELS have all had conventions, this year. A comparison of the four would probably make a good Forum article (just sayin').

Agreed!

My estimation is that the most endangered of the three in the Missouri Synod, even as it is the chief source of hope for its future, is the evangelical catholic group.  The confessionalist ubermenschen in the LCMS warp away from Lutheranism as a confessing reform movement within the church catholic by denominationalizing it, at the same time as they're narrowing the boundaries of what it means to be Lutheran.  Scott Geminn's article in the latest Forum Letter bells that cat.  It's the triumph of the Flacian Gnesio-Lutheran strain, always purifying toward something that resembles a sect.  Meanwhile the evangelical edge is often as close as it can get to being anabaptist.  Quality leaders formed and/or forming who can articulate a dynamic evangelical and catholic theology and practice could, prayerfully, move the LCMS toward its heart. 

My pessimism about that taking place leads me to ask more about the NALC as safe harbor and future flagship.

Dave Benke

[mj4]

My memory may be hazy, but I think there was an ACNA bishop involved in Bishop Bradosky's installation.
Personally, I don't worry too much about whether any of our bishops are in apostolic succession.  They were all legitimately elected and installed.

I believe that there must be three other bishops (who were ordained in succession themselves) to make it "in historic succession."   

Peace, JOHN

Apostolic Succession and the Historic Episcopate are in the eyes of the beholder. It all depends on who does the defining -  sort of like Sanctuary, apparently.

[Steve Ames]

Pr. Hannah, thank you for your kind words in Reply #30 about my posts on the livestream of the recent WELS convention.  One may want more information about the NALC convocation.   The ELCA, LCMS, NALC, and WELS all appear to have three common concerns:
1.   A demographic trend of falling membership which perhaps in the case of the NALC is limited to an aging pastoral roster.  https://thenalc.org/projects/meet-bishop-elect-dan-selbo/#1565403259487-bd42b8e6-39cd  -- What Challenges Do You See Facing the NALC?
2.   Financial funding is tight requiring spending investment income or cash reserves.  The NALC budget plans to use cash resources. https://thenalc.org/wp-content/uploads/NALC-Convo-Insert-2019.pdf
3.   Ongoing dialogues with other Lutheran church -bodies which may have no clear future outcome  -- ELCA with NALC, for NALC add also the LCMS, for the LCMS add also the ELS/ WELS, and for the WELS add also the Church of the Lutheran Confession (CLC).  If you took the ends of this chain of ongoing dialogues; the ELCA and the CLC the differences in doctrine and practice is so great that any attempt at dialogue would be meaningless.

“In accord with a Churchwide Assembly resolution in 2013, the ELCA maintains regular contact with the North American Lutheran Church (NALC). Together with leaders from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada (ELCIC), Presiding Bishop Eaton and others have met several times with NALC leaders in order to build relationships, exchange information and discuss difficult issues.”
ELCA report on Ecumenical and Inter-Religious Relations


Rev. Dave Benke – Reply #42: “My estimation is that the most endangered of the three in the Missouri Synod … is the evangelical catholic group.  …  My pessimism about that taking place leads me to ask more about the NALC as safe harbor and future flagship.”
Rev Benke’s comment raises the thought that these ongoing dialogues with other Lutheran church-bodies could lead to some restructuring among American Lutherans in the future.


The NALC using cash reserves to cover its budget reminds me of the history of the 1970s Lutheran synod Federation of Authentic Lutherans (FAL) which left the LCMS because of declared church fellowship with the ALC.  The FAL tried to expand too fast which eventually led its congregations to join either the ELS or the WELS.  I am not saying this is the case with the NALC.  One needs to consider that all four church bodies wrestle with the question of how much clarity do they wish to give the general public about their internal challenges.  I think that Rev. Johnson’s and Rev. Sauer’s  reporting provided an excellent comparison of the ELCA, LCMS, and NALC.