Author Topic: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop  (Read 19936 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2019, 12:34:26 PM »
Characterizing the "two" streams of the NALC as a "word and sacrament group" and a "Word of God group" with a "more pietistic faith" misses what exactly divides the NALC and mischaracterizes both positions. Everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about both word and sacrament, just like everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about the importance of the bible. Locating the divisions in the NALC requires more nuance than this.

Where do you locate them?

Dave Benke

I think there're at least three: the evangelical catholics, the evangelicals, and the confessionalists.


I wonder whether a decade or so back Pastor Selbo would have imagined being installed as a bishop through the laying on of hands by multiple bishops who themselves are in historic succession.


Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

mj4

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2019, 12:51:57 PM »
Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?

Didn't Bp. Paull Spring lay hands on John Bradosky?

This may be important as they deepen relations with the ACNA and other churches in the Anglican Communion.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:54:46 PM by mj4 »

James_Gale

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2019, 12:55:36 PM »
Characterizing the "two" streams of the NALC as a "word and sacrament group" and a "Word of God group" with a "more pietistic faith" misses what exactly divides the NALC and mischaracterizes both positions. Everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about both word and sacrament, just like everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about the importance of the bible. Locating the divisions in the NALC requires more nuance than this.

Where do you locate them?

Dave Benke

I think there're at least three: the evangelical catholics, the evangelicals, and the confessionalists.


I wonder whether a decade or so back Pastor Selbo would have imagined being installed as a bishop through the laying on of hands by multiple bishops who themselves are in historic succession.


Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?


The "historic episcopate" is not a requirement in the NALC.  However, from the beginning, the NALC has included in its installation of bishops the laying on of hands by bishops who are in historic succession.  As I recall, these have included Anglican bishops and Lutheran bishops from outside the US.


There are no rules regarding the manner of installing bishops.  The only requirement is that the bishop be "an ordained minister who is a member of the NALC" who has been elected in the manner prescribed by the constitution.  Participation in a particular installation rite is not a formal condition on taking office, although it certainly is expected.


The NALC constitution does provide that the bishop "will, with the concurrence of the Executive Council, authorize all ordinations."  "The Bishop will normally conduct the rite of ordination."  However, a candidate for ordination may request that the bishop instead "appoint a particular ordained minister to preside at the ordination on behalf of the church."  The bishop "shall" approve such a request "absent extraordinary circumstances."

Mark Brown

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2019, 01:00:55 PM »
Characterizing the "two" streams of the NALC as a "word and sacrament group" and a "Word of God group" with a "more pietistic faith" misses what exactly divides the NALC and mischaracterizes both positions. Everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about both word and sacrament, just like everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about the importance of the bible. Locating the divisions in the NALC requires more nuance than this.

Where do you locate them?

Dave Benke

I think there're at least three: the evangelical catholics, the evangelicals, and the confessionalists.
So High Church, Low Church and I want to say broadchurch, but that really isn't it, more like intellectual church.  Two flavors of aesthetics/church practice and one that puts the emphasis on the intellectual side.

Hypothesis: Protestant world is really sorting itself out along two axes.

This should be an image, but I don't know if this function works.  One axis: Aesthetics (Tent/Mass).  Other Axis: Intellections (Historic Teachings (Focus on Sin and Redemption)/New Teachings (Focus on Acceptance)), suggestions as to best current pure examples: SBC, ACNA, TEC, PC-USA (worst one in tent/new). 


James_Gale

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2019, 01:02:33 PM »
Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?

Didn't Bp. Paull Spring lay hands on John Bradosky?

This may be important as they deepen relations with the ACNA and other churches in the Anglican Communion.


He and other bishops did.  (This includes Bishops Ron Warren, Ralph Kempski, and Henry Schulte.)

mj4

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2019, 01:14:14 PM »
The "historic episcopate" is not a requirement in the NALC.  However, from the beginning, the NALC has included in its installation of bishops the laying on of hands by bishops who are in historic succession.  As I recall, these have included Anglican bishops and Lutheran bishops from outside the US.

I've heard that this is the case for some of the churches in Germany. Even though they don't officially claim to have the historic episcopate, they do in a de facto sort of way due to the participation of the Scandinavian churches. Someone else may be able to speak more knowledgeably about this.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2019, 01:50:13 PM »
I was seated with the ecumenical observers to the constituting convention of the NALC at the time of Bishop Spring's election; in fact, I was seated beside the representative from the USCCB.

As the service unfolded I whispered to him:  "So:  An epeklesis, laying of hands, and some Bishops in apostolic succession:  Was this an "installation" or a Consecration?" 

He answered:  "Yes.".
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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2019, 01:52:25 PM »
Characterizing the "two" streams of the NALC as a "word and sacrament group" and a "Word of God group" with a "more pietistic faith" misses what exactly divides the NALC and mischaracterizes both positions. Everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about both word and sacrament, just like everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about the importance of the bible. Locating the divisions in the NALC requires more nuance than this.

Where do you locate them?

Dave Benke

I think there're at least three: the evangelical catholics, the evangelicals, and the confessionalists.
So High Church, Low Church and I want to say broadchurch, but that really isn't it, more like intellectual church.  Two flavors of aesthetics/church practice and one that puts the emphasis on the intellectual side.

Hypothesis: Protestant world is really sorting itself out along two axes.

This should be an image, but I don't know if this function works.  One axis: Aesthetics (Tent/Mass).  Other Axis: Intellections (Historic Teachings (Focus on Sin and Redemption)/New Teachings (Focus on Acceptance)), suggestions as to best current pure examples: SBC, ACNA, TEC, PC-USA (worst one in tent/new).

Where would you place the Roman Catholic Church on your matrix?

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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2019, 02:30:21 PM »

Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?

The NALC didn't receive the historic episcopate from the ELCA.

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George Erdner

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2019, 02:45:18 PM »
So High Church, Low Church and I want to say broadchurch, but that really isn't it, more like intellectual church.  Two flavors of aesthetics/church practice and one that puts the emphasis on the intellectual side.

Many of the congregations I've either been a member of, a visitor to, or just acquainted with in passing have multiple worship services every Sunday morning (except some churches drop to one service in the Summer). One of the two is more or less "high" church, and the other is more or less "low" church. Any emphasis or lack thereof on the "intellectual" tends to be transparent to the pew-sitters.

I'll admit, I've never been in close enough geographic proximity to any NALC congregation on any Sunday morning to visit one. And I would want to do so if the opportunity ever presents itself. There is a slim chance my wife and I will be relocating to Boca Raton, Florida, within a year or two. Maybe I'll find one there. I haven't looked yet, it's too far distant a concern at this time.

Mark Brown

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2019, 03:23:24 PM »
Characterizing the "two" streams of the NALC as a "word and sacrament group" and a "Word of God group" with a "more pietistic faith" misses what exactly divides the NALC and mischaracterizes both positions. Everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about both word and sacrament, just like everyone in the NALC would be emphatic about the importance of the bible. Locating the divisions in the NALC requires more nuance than this.

Where do you locate them?

Dave Benke

I think there're at least three: the evangelical catholics, the evangelicals, and the confessionalists.
So High Church, Low Church and I want to say broadchurch, but that really isn't it, more like intellectual church.  Two flavors of aesthetics/church practice and one that puts the emphasis on the intellectual side.

Hypothesis: Protestant world is really sorting itself out along two axes.

This should be an image, but I don't know if this function works.  One axis: Aesthetics (Tent/Mass).  Other Axis: Intellections (Historic Teachings (Focus on Sin and Redemption)/New Teachings (Focus on Acceptance)), suggestions as to best current pure examples: SBC, ACNA, TEC, PC-USA (worst one in tent/new).

Where would you place the Roman Catholic Church on your matrix?

Peace, JOHN

I said protestant world, but...  The Catholic Church and in a mirror way I'd say the Methodist Church mostly occupy the "mass" side and the "tent" side respectively, but are spread out across the historic and new theology.  The Methodist appears to be heading to a split which will clarify that institutionally.  The resulting low/historic Methodist church would be back to being separated from the SBC by ecclesiology.  The low/new Methodists would be free to join the emerging Union Protestant Church. The Catholic church has a bigger problem with that, although there seem to be plenty of voices that wonder if that can hold.  Maybe the submit to the pope holds, but when Francis allows male priests to be married, ordains a few female deacons, elevates a Chinese Communist church bishop to Cardinal, revokes the Latin Mass encyclical and gives Fr. Martin a bishop's mitre, the murmurs today might be striking a few hammer blows.
 
If my hypothesis holds, over time I think you'd see elements of older churches that were united by older things (ethnicity, the pope, confessions, historical accident) split apart and stitch back together along new lines (aesthetics high/low, historic/new theology).  The Catholic church is the real question.  Is this a new Reformation era where even it gets reconfigured, or does the papacy hold it together.

John_Hannah

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2019, 04:09:42 PM »

Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?

The NALC didn't receive the historic episcopate from the ELCA.

spt+

What is the guess here? Will Bishop Selbo perpetuate the historic episcopate in the NALC?

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2019, 04:41:45 PM »


Interesting that the ELCA, LCMS, NALC and WELS have all had conventions, this year. A comparison of the four would probably make a good Forum article (just sayin').

We'll have reports on ELCA, LCMS and NALC. We didn't have anyone at WELS. A comparison would be interesting, but hard to do unless someone went to all of them, and I wouldn't as that of anyone.
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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2019, 04:43:01 PM »

Did the NALC keep the historic episcopate from the ELDA?

The NALC didn't receive the historic episcopate from the ELCA.

spt+

What is the guess here? Will Bishop Selbo perpetuate the historic episcopate in the NALC?

Peace, JOHN


The issue won't come up again until the earlier of (i) the installation of Bp. Selbo's successor and (ii) a decision to appoint regional bishops.  In either case, I don't think that Bp. Selbo would make this decision on his own.  I am quite sure that he'd strive for a practice that posed the lowest threat to unity.


It may be worth noting that the arguments raised by Word Alone and others against CCM don't apply here the same way.  CCM purported to infuse the historic episcopate into the ELCA as part of an ecumenical agreement.  Many opposed the overall agreement, arguing that true church unity must be based solely in agreement on the Word and that it was improper to add extraneous obligations that could burden one's conscience and detract from the Gospel.  Installing bishops through the laying on of hands by bishops in historic succession is not a requirement under NALC rules.   Nor has the NALC promised other bodies that it will continue this practice. 

James_Gale

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2019, 04:45:21 PM »


Interesting that the ELCA, LCMS, NALC and WELS have all had conventions, this year. A comparison of the four would probably make a good Forum article (just sayin').

We'll have reports on ELCA, LCMS and NALC. We didn't have anyone at WELS. A comparison would be interesting, but hard to do unless someone went to all of them, and I wouldn't as that of anyone.


If only you had the authority to demand penance of some particularly egregious sinner.  You could force that poor soul to attend all of these gatherings.  The threat of having to repeat the ordeal almost certainly would lead the person to amend his or her ways.