Author Topic: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop  (Read 17894 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #195 on: August 28, 2019, 07:24:47 PM »
That isn’t how language works. Being able to distinguish squiggles from words is itself an interpretive act. There is no knowing what the words are prior to an interpretative act and a community, even if the community is simply the publishers of dictionaries.


OK, it takes some outside information to know that the squiggles are words. I still maintain that there is a difference between recognizing that ἀγαπάω (or ΑΓΑΠΑΩ in the uncials) is a word in the Greek language that is used in John 3:16; which is not influenced by any personal biases; and attributing meaning(s) to that word within that context, which can be influenced by personal biases.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #196 on: August 28, 2019, 07:41:06 PM »
“In the Greek language...” is something you only recognize because of participation in a community. You only know what people told you about those squiggles, not what the squiggles themselves say..

“Gut” is just squiggles apart from an interpretive community, and it means something completely different to a German than to a speaker of English.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #197 on: August 29, 2019, 12:47:49 AM »
“In the Greek language...” is something you only recognize because of participation in a community. You only know what people told you about those squiggles, not what the squiggles themselves say..

“Gut” is just squiggles apart from an interpretive community, and it means something completely different to a German than to a speaker of English.


Regardless of the language and its meanings, we can agree that "gut" is the word on the page. Although even that issue could have some differences with the uncials where there were no spaces between words and words could start on one line and end on the other. So, if we see NOWHERE, does that mean "now here" or "no where"? Our son liked to look at the POPEYES sign and say, "Pope yes."
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 12:51:04 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #198 on: August 29, 2019, 01:39:57 AM »
“In the Greek language...” is something you only recognize because of participation in a community. You only know what people told you about those squiggles, not what the squiggles themselves say..

“Gut” is just squiggles apart from an interpretive community, and it means something completely different to a German than to a speaker of English.


Regardless of the language and its meanings, we can agree that "gut" is the word on the page. Although even that issue could have some differences with the uncials where there were no spaces between words and words could start on one line and end on the other. So, if we see NOWHERE, does that mean "now here" or "no where"? Our son liked to look at the POPEYES sign and say, "Pope yes."
We can't agree that "gut" is a word on a page "regardless of the language and its meanings." It might be a random pattern of spilled ink. Only by regarding the language and its meanings can we agree that "gut" is a word on a page. And only by honing that regard to a specific community of speakers can we make heads or tails of it.

dkjnf  Is that a word on a screen? No, I just smushed the keypad a little and that's what popped up. How about fwiw? You'd recognize that as something I typed on purpose, depending on the context.

   

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #199 on: August 29, 2019, 11:00:56 AM »
We can't agree that "gut" is a word on a page "regardless of the language and its meanings." It might be a random pattern of spilled ink. Only by regarding the language and its meanings can we agree that "gut" is a word on a page.


When I see Arabic written, I only see random markings on a page, but, because of the type of writing, I believe that they are letters that someone with greater knowledge than I can decipher.



Quote
dkjnf  Is that a word on a screen?


Maybe, maybe not. While you jump to a conclusion that it must not be a word; I'm not ready to make such a leap. Frequently, when I have seen an unknown combination of letters, like FWIW, I will search to see if that combination has meaning. I don't automatically dismiss it as nothing because I don't yet understand it.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #200 on: August 29, 2019, 12:51:05 PM »
We can't agree that "gut" is a word on a page "regardless of the language and its meanings." It might be a random pattern of spilled ink. Only by regarding the language and its meanings can we agree that "gut" is a word on a page.


When I see Arabic written, I only see random markings on a page, but, because of the type of writing, I believe that they are letters that someone with greater knowledge than I can decipher.



Quote
dkjnf  Is that a word on a screen?


Maybe, maybe not. While you jump to a conclusion that it must not be a word; I'm not ready to make such a leap. Frequently, when I have seen an unknown combination of letters, like FWIW, I will search to see if that combination has meaning. I don't automatically dismiss it as nothing because I don't yet understand it.
I know. You "search" [for an explanation from some community within which it has meaning]. You don't search by yourself in a vacuum.

Nobody has ever suggested dismissing things we don't understand. What I'm suggesting is that there is no such thing as "what words/set of squiggles say in themselves" apart from a prior viewpoint, community, history, bias, etc. In fact, more and more progressives agree with me on this-- they're concluding that the language itself is sexist because the latent meanings inhering in it can't be divorced from the biases of the culture that produced it, which they're convinced is/was sexist. The real disagreement is whether the language developed that way because reality as God created it is patriarchal, or whether patriarchy is still a thing because the language and culture developed that way.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Dan Selbo's election as NALC Bishop
« Reply #201 on: August 29, 2019, 03:17:44 PM »
“In the Greek language...” is something you only recognize because of participation in a community. You only know what people told you about those squiggles, not what the squiggles themselves say..

“Gut” is just squiggles apart from an interpretive community, and it means something completely different to a German than to a speaker of English.

Regardless of the language and its meanings, we can agree that "gut" is the word on the page. Although even that issue could have some differences with the uncials where there were no spaces between words and words could start on one line and end on the other. So, if we see NOWHERE, does that mean "now here" or "no where"? Our son liked to look at the POPEYES sign and say, "Pope yes."
We can't agree that "gut" is a word on a page "regardless of the language and its meanings." It might be a random pattern of spilled ink. Only by regarding the language and its meanings can we agree that "gut" is a word on a page. And only by honing that regard to a specific community of speakers can we make heads or tails of it.

dkjnf  Is that a word on a screen? No, I just smushed the keypad a little and that's what popped up. How about fwiw? You'd recognize that as something I typed on purpose, depending on the context.


The Earthman Arthur Dent to the alien Ford Prefect, at the beginning of the second Fit of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (which I'm coming to recognize as a most remarkable prophetic work), as the spaceship Heart of Gold is coming out of the Infinite Improbability Drive after they have been saved for (almost) certain death after being tossed out of the airlock of a Vogon ship into the vacuum of space:

"Ford, there's an infinite number of monkeys out here who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out."

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