Author Topic: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered  (Read 25552 times)

Gladfelteri

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #180 on: August 02, 2007, 02:09:04 PM »
Brian Please answer the question.  Is this what you believe and teach?
I believe and teach what we confess in our Creeds and in our ELCA's Confession of Faith.

You didn't answer my question. Did Mark 16:8 really happen as the gospel reports it?
Um . . . what might lead you to doubt it?

Peace,
Irl

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #181 on: August 02, 2007, 03:33:54 PM »
Um . . . what might lead you to doubt it?
1. We know about the resurrection, so somebody must have said something to someone. However, if Mark were the only gospel we had, based on that story, I would argue that our knowledge of the resurrection happened because the angel's promise came true. In spite of the women's failure to speak, the disciples went home to Galilee, and there they saw the risen Jesus. One of Mark's themes is Christ's faithfulness to his unfaithful disciples. It occurs throughout the gospel, and ends with the final failure and angelic promise.

2. Matthew and Luke have different endings. Matthew 21:8 declares that the women ran and reported to the disciples -- and Jesus met them on the way. There is no mention of their silence. Luke 24:9 tells us that the women told the angel's message to the 11 and all the rest -- but they didn't believe them. (There is no account of Jesus appearing to the women on their way and no mention of their silence.) John tells us that Mary saw the empty tomb, then went and told the disciples. She then sees the risen Jesus, but doesn't recognize him at first. Then she tells the disciples that she has seen the Lord. (There's no angel message in John.)

3. One can, as people throughout history have done, and add additional words or stories to the end of Mark so that it fits with the other gospels. Even Steven Tibbetts did this when he suggested that the women were silent "at first". That isn't what Mark says.

It points out quite different approaches to scriptures to say that either Mark is right and the women were silent and the others are wrong or the others are right and spoke the message and Mark was wrong; or when one harmonizes the stories and argue that at first the women were silent, then followed the angel's instructions; or if one lets each gospel writer speak his own story about Jesus -- that for Mark, the women are silent -- another indication of the disciples' failure to do as commanded. For Matthew and Luke, the women speak. In John, there is only Mary who speaks twice. And there is no attempt to try and harmonize the stories, but let each one declare its own message.

In a similar way, my guess is that if you and I preached a sermon on the same gospel text, our sermons would be quite different; partly because we are different with different emphases in our theologies and because we are preaching to different congregations. That doesn't mean that one is right and the other is wrong. Both can be proclamations of the Word of God -- the gospel that has the power to save those who believe.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ROB_MOSKOWITZ

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #182 on: August 02, 2007, 03:42:41 PM »
Um . . . what might lead you to doubt it?
1. We know about the resurrection, so somebody must have said something to someone. However, if Mark were the only gospel we had, based on that story, I would argue that our knowledge of the resurrection happened because the angel's promise came true. In spite of the women's failure to speak, the disciples went home to Galilee, and there they saw the risen Jesus. One of Mark's themes is Christ's faithfulness to his unfaithful disciples. It occurs throughout the gospel, and ends with the final failure and angelic promise.

2. Matthew and Luke have different endings. Matthew 21:8 declares that the women ran and reported to the disciples -- and Jesus met them on the way. There is no mention of their silence. Luke 24:9 tells us that the women told the angel's message to the 11 and all the rest -- but they didn't believe them. (There is no account of Jesus appearing to the women on their way and no mention of their silence.) John tells us that Mary saw the empty tomb, then went and told the disciples. She then sees the risen Jesus, but doesn't recognize him at first. Then she tells the disciples that she has seen the Lord. (There's no angel message in John.)

3. One can, as people throughout history have done, and add additional words or stories to the end of Mark so that it fits with the other gospels. Even Steven Tibbetts did this when he suggested that the women were silent "at first". That isn't what Mark says.

It points out quite different approaches to scriptures to say that either Mark is right and the women were silent and the others are wrong or the others are right and spoke the message and Mark was wrong; or when one harmonizes the stories and argue that at first the women were silent, then followed the angel's instructions; or if one lets each gospel writer speak his own story about Jesus -- that for Mark, the women are silent -- another indication of the disciples' failure to do as commanded. For Matthew and Luke, the women speak. In John, there is only Mary who speaks twice. And there is no attempt to try and harmonize the stories, but let each one declare its own message.

In a similar way, my guess is that if you and I preached a sermon on the same gospel text, our sermons would be quite different; partly because we are different with different emphases in our theologies and because we are preaching to different congregations. That doesn't mean that one is right and the other is wrong. Both can be proclamations of the Word of God -- the gospel that has the power to save those who believe.

Wow no truth?  Thus all is true?  All by trying to play the biblical witness against itself.

That is the case "the gospel that has the power to save those who believe".  Which Gospel is the question?   The one proclaimed in scripture or the one thats left after the autopsy.

Ill take the clear witness of scripture over the smoke and mirrors.

Rob Moskowitz
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 03:47:54 PM by ROB_MOSKOWITZ »

Mike Bennett

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #183 on: August 02, 2007, 04:23:43 PM »
And specifically, where on earth would I come up with a crazy concept like "the resurrection" without the "resurrection appearance stories"   as they're recorded in Scripture?
The stories are based on true events. Details are likely to have been changed over the decades, or selectively remembered.

If I believe the reality of the resurrection but can't rely on the Scriptural resurrection accounts, what do I rely on? 

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #184 on: August 02, 2007, 04:26:10 PM »
Are you saying you dont believe the Gospel writiers where inspired by God to give thier accounts?    Is Jesus' resurection simply a "common element"  in "just one person's experience of what happened".    So Scriptures do not declare what "really happened," .   WOW!! 
I return to my often asked question, did Mark 16:8 really happen as reported? Did the women say nothing to anyone?

Steven Tibbetts answered that question last week.  Most recently.  I believe his answer was "Not then."

Mike Bennett
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2007, 04:28:29 PM »
A statement in the introduction of The Five Gospels is: "Beware of finding a Jesus entirely congenial to you" (p. 5). Such a Jesus is likely to be your own projection of Jesus rather than the one actually found in scriptures.

Proposed truism: "Beware of book introductions that instruct you to 'beware of' something.  So often, what follows is precisely that 'something,' but the author wants you to think otherwise."  Sort of like a wolf in wolf's clothing telling you he is a sheep in sheep's clothing.  

The worst part of this truism is that these wolves often really believe that they are sheep.  Even as they ravenously swallow sheep whole.

pax, spt+
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 04:56:31 PM by Pr. Steven P. Tibbetts »
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #186 on: August 02, 2007, 04:55:05 PM »
Even Steven Tibbetts did this when he suggested that the women were silent "at first". That isn't what Mark says.

1) I must confess that I get a charge out of being used as the measure for a particular point-of-view.  It's like the time during a Synod Assembly debate (with the Presiding Bishop in the room) where, rather than addressing the resolution, speakers began opening their statements with, "I (dis-) agree with Pastor Tibbetts..."  OTOH, it is quite disconcerting, as suddenly the issue has then become me -- and it's not about me.

2) To borrow one of your exegetical techniques, "Mark doesn't not say it, either."  Your presumption, too, is that the original audience is totally ignorant of anything about Christ that cannot be found in (in this case) Mark's gospel.  This is a presumption that I do not share.

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ptmccain

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #187 on: August 02, 2007, 05:01:06 PM »
I agree with Steven.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #188 on: August 02, 2007, 05:13:15 PM »
 :-[
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ROB_MOSKOWITZ

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #189 on: August 02, 2007, 05:27:54 PM »
Are you saying you dont believe the Gospel writiers where inspired by God to give thier accounts?    Is Jesus' resurection simply a "common element"  in "just one person's experience of what happened".    So Scriptures do not declare what "really happened," .   WOW!! 
I return to my often asked question, did Mark 16:8 really happen as reported? Did the women say nothing to anyone?

Steven Tibbetts answered that question last week.  Most recently.  I believe his answer was "Not then."

Mike Bennett

Indeed that is an appropreate answer!

Rob Moskowitz

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #190 on: August 02, 2007, 09:20:04 PM »
Ill take the clear witness of scripture over the smoke and mirrors.
Please tell me exactly what happened at the empty tomb? Who saw it? What was said? What happened afterwards? To whom did the risen Jesus appear and when?

I note that you reference the witness of scriptures, without ever stating what scriptures say.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 09:22:31 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #191 on: August 02, 2007, 09:20:41 PM »
If I believe the reality of the resurrection but can't rely on the Scriptural resurrection accounts, what do I rely on? 
The faithfulness of God to unfaithful, sinful, believers.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #192 on: August 02, 2007, 09:23:38 PM »
Steven Tibbetts answered that question last week.  Most recently.  I believe his answer was "Not then."
Yes, he did. That's Steve's answer. It's not Mark's. It comes from a learned pastor. It does not come from scriptures.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #193 on: August 02, 2007, 09:24:13 PM »
I agree with Steven.
I'll agree with the Gospel of Mark.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #194 on: August 02, 2007, 10:21:44 PM »
I agree with Steven.
I'll agree with the Gospel of Mark.

Steven agrees with the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  And the Epistles, the Creeds...



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