Author Topic: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered  (Read 33334 times)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45256
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2007, 03:09:14 PM »
My comment:  Well, on the other hand maybe they were two parts of one single statement of the Centurion, something like:  "Certainly this man was innocent; truly this man [anthropos] was the Son of God!
That is one way of interpreting the differences. (Isn't that also saying that each writer's memory was a bit faulty? They remembered only part of what was said and forgot the other. Then we would have to wonder what else might they have forgotten.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2007, 04:22:06 PM »
Nope, I'm treating the gospel as a parable. Written by an inspired author who was more concerned about the transformational meaning the text would have on its hearers/readers.

Aesop and the Brothers Grimm serve the same purpose.  Which may help explain why I stopped using your "Gospel Notes" as a resource for my preaching several years ago.

spt+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

Steven Tibbetts

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10213
  • Big tents are for circuses.
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2007, 04:36:11 PM »
Well, Brian, I make it a habit to read 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 at the Committal of a Christian as the Rite for Burial is winding up.  "Lo!  I tell you a mystery... we shall be changed.  For this mortal nature must put on the imperishable...." 

What did Saul see when the Risen Lord appeared to him?  That kind of body.  The same Body that I hand to those who receive the Holy Communion.

pax, spt+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2007, 05:58:59 PM »
2. The risen Jesus is a living, active presence in the world through the Holy Spirit. It is with us as we gather in Jesus' name. It is with us through the proclamation of the Word. It is with us in the Holy Meal. It is promised to us as we are sent with the Great Commission, "I will be with you always to the end of the age." Aesop died -- and stayed dead.


Brian, I'm having a hard time understanding the positions you are taking here to be at all representative of orthodox, Biblical Christianity and confessing Lutheranism. I frankly fear for your soul.

We do not have a "presence" we have Jesus. He is not it, but the One, eternal God, whom earth and heaven adore. He is with us always, according to both His human nature and His divine nature.

Were you unable to attend Christology classes at the seminary?

« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 06:14:23 PM by ptmccain »

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45256
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2007, 06:42:12 PM »
Aesop and the Brothers Grimm serve the same purpose.  Which may help explain why I stopped using your "Gospel Notes" as a resource for my preaching several years ago.
You have been replaced by many others.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45256
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2007, 06:49:09 PM »
Were you unable to attend Christology classes at the seminary?
I think I took one. I concentrated on biblical classes -- even attended a year at a Lutheran Bible school.

When do you plan to respond to the biblical texts?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45256
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2007, 06:53:22 PM »
What did Saul see when the Risen Lord appeared to him?  That kind of body.  The same Body that I hand to those who receive the Holy Communion.
That's the best answer I've seen yet. It's probably not one that most other Protestants would give, but it's one Lutherans should have.

Could it not be expanded to also say, the same Body that gathers in Jesus' name? There were and probably continues to be discussion of whether or not the Real Presence of Christ in the sacrament is the same or different as the Real Presence promised to those who gather in his name.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2007, 07:35:45 PM »
When do you plan to respond to the biblical texts?

Unfortunately, but understandably, you confuse your idle speculations with faithful Biblical theology.

I've "responded" to the Biblical texts a long time ago Brian, when I freely and joyfully promised to speak nothing, either privately or publicly, contrary to the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions.

I have no intention of "responding" to your heretical musings, in obedience to Proverbs 26:4.


« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 07:45:26 PM by ptmccain »

Mel Harris

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2007, 07:59:17 PM »

 Aesop died -- and stayed dead.


Brian,

     It occurred to me that I might be able to better comprehend your reasoning on this thread if you would explain what you mean by "Aesop died -- and stayed dead." and how you know that.

Mel Harris

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45256
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2007, 08:00:56 PM »
Unfortunately, but understandably, you confuse your idle speculations with faithful Biblical theology.

I've "responded" to the Biblical texts a long time ago Brian, when I freely and joyfully promised to speak nothing, either privately or publicly, contrary to the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions.

I have no intention of "responding" to your heretical musings, in obedience to Proverbs 26:4.

Is your use of Proverbs 26:4 your way of offering "faithful Biblical theology" that is in line with Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45256
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2007, 08:16:46 PM »
It occurred to me that I might be able to better comprehend your reasoning on this thread if you would explain what you mean by "Aesop died -- and stayed dead." and how you know that.
As far as I know, no one has had or even claimed to have had experiences with a living Aesop after his death.

In contrast, I think that the early believers believed that Jesus had been raised from the dead, not just because somebody told them it happened; but because they also experienced the risen Jesus in some mysterious ways. We have records of Paul's encounter with the risen Jesus. We have a record of what the two men from Emmaus experienced and Mary. As well as a few other remembrances of resurrection encounters with Jesus. I think that there were many more of these that are not recorded in scriptures. For instance, Paul and Luke tells us that Jesus appeared first to Peter, but we have no account of that appearance; similarly, the appearances Paul mentions to more than 500 or to James are not given in scriptures.

I'm of the opinion that what kept the Christian church going and growing in those early years was not just the retelling of the stories about Jesus, but experiences people had with the risen Jesus (or with the Holy Spirit). In part, that's why I started another discussion about autobiographical theology. If all that the people had were the stories of Jesus, including his resurrection, then those stories wouldn't be much different than Aesop's Fables. It was the stories and the mysterious, but real presence of Jesus the community had when they gathered in his name and when they broke bread together, and for some, like Paul, as individual encounters with the risen Jesus that makes Christianity different than Aesopanity.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 01:35:07 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Gladfelteri

  • Guest
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2007, 08:37:35 PM »
Aesop and the Brothers Grimm serve the same purpose.  Which may help explain why I stopped using your "Gospel Notes" as a resource for my preaching several years ago.
You have been replaced by many others.
Like me!  :)  Brian, your weekly exegetical studies are an important resource for my preaching and for my own study.  I learn a lot from them, and they also help me brush up on my Greek.  :)  Keep up the fine work !

Peace,
Irl
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 08:45:49 PM by Irl Gladfelter »

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 45256
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2007, 01:38:40 AM »
Like me!  :)  Brian, your weekly exegetical studies are an important resource for my preaching and for my own study.  I learn a lot from them, and they also help me brush up on my Greek.  :)  Keep up the fine work !
Thanks -- and I await the arrival of the eyewitness book you recommended.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles_Austin

  • Guest
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2007, 04:14:03 AM »
Pastror McCain writes:

Unfortunately, but understandably, you confuse your idle speculations with faithful Biblical theology.
I've "responded" to the Biblical texts a long time ago Brian, when I freely and joyfully promised to speak nothing, either privately or publicly, contrary to the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions.
I have no intention of "responding" to your heretical musings, in obedience to Proverbs 26:4.

I comment:

Moderator! Please!
"Idle speculations"? "Heretical musings"?
It has been clear for some time what kind of theology Pastor McCain endorses. They are others on this forum he might presume to damn and I'm sure as time goes by he will do so, thereby preserving his own theological purity.
No one, including Pastor McCain is under any obligation to read this thread or comment on it (and it appears that Pastor McCain feels his soul might be in peril if he considers what is said here.)
But if anyone does comment here, can we please lay off the condemnations and consignment to the outer depths?
Brian needs no defense from me and has always been gracious and non-defensive when attacked. Still, language such Pastor McCain used above poisons the discussion and diminishes the larger intent of this forum.

Moderator?

ptmccain

  • Guest
Re: The Gospels -- Jesus Remembered
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2007, 07:04:27 AM »
Pr. Austin, have you received some permission of which the rest of us are unaware to post public comments to the moderator rather than using the "report to moderator" link? You've done this several times. I've been told by the moderator to use the "report to moderator" link. I think that this behavior on your part: "poisons the discussion and diminishes the larger intent of this forum."

Rather than whining about others' comments, perhaps you might consider actually engaging in theological defense of Brian's assertions that the Resurrection accounts are parables.

I believe such musings are heretical. Feel free to inform us why they are not and how such musings serve the "larger intent of this forum."