Author Topic: Wednesday worship  (Read 1626 times)

Richard Johnson

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Wednesday worship
« on: August 07, 2019, 02:10:06 PM »
The Eucharist on Wednesday was, well, one more indication that the ELCA is fully in the camp of LGBTQetc. inclusion--so much so that it becomes exclusion of those who disagree. For starters, the preacher was Bradley Schmeling, the pastor, formerly in Atlanta, who was expelled from the ELCA because of his being in a same-gender relationship back in 2007. He's now back on the roster, and pastor of Gloria Dei Lutheran Church in St. Paul MN. It was the usual sermon about full inclusion, laced with reminders of the preacher's sexual preference. He did tell one story that was actually pretty funny. Vacation Bible School, two five-year-old girls come up to him giggling, and one asks, "Pastor, are you in or out?" He immediately starts to try to discern what they mean. In or out of the closet? In or out of the patriarchal institution? As he is thinking about this, the other girl jabs the one who has asked. "No," she says, "it's 'innie or outie'." But the final use of the illustration was the question: Are you in or out of the struggle for inclusion and justice, etc. Predictable. Entertaining moral talk, not much gospel there. In the prayers we were specifically bid to give thanks for the tenth anniversary of the welcoming of LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ people to the clergy roster of the ELCA. Another CWA agenda-driven "worship" service. There were also several of those prayers that inform God of lots of the good things we're doing that he presumably already knows about. Unsatisfying service, to say the least. At least the music was OK.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Charles Austin

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 04:33:22 PM »
Back in the 1960s and early 1970s (when some here were still in nappies) advocacy groups Opposed to the war in Vietnam would organize “anti-war” Eucharists as “alternate” worship at conventions of church bodies.
That was when I concluded that, while I agreed with the settlements expressed, using the Eucharist for any kind of “advocacy” was not a good idea. Those services always did awful things to liturgical language, prayer, the community nature of the gathering, and the theology of the sacrament.
Sounds like things haven’t changed much.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 04:45:14 PM »
Back in the 1960s and early 1970s (when some here were still in nappies) advocacy groups Opposed to the war in Vietnam would organize “anti-war” Eucharists as “alternate” worship at conventions of church bodies.

Alternative celebratons gathered at opposing altars is terrible ecclesiology, and, as you note very dubious sacramentology.

Best to stick with the Augustana VII definition of Church.
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Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
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Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

mj4

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 05:00:23 PM »
The Eucharist on Wednesday was, well, one more indication that the ELCA is fully in the camp of LGBTQetc. inclusion--so much so that it becomes exclusion of those who disagree. For starters, the preacher was Bradley Schmeling, the pastor, formerly in Atlanta, who was expelled from the ELCA because of his being in a same-gender relationship back in 2007.

Regular posters are probably tired of me mentioning this, but for the sake of newcomers I’ll point it out again. When Pr. Schmeling was removed from the roster, it had no effect on his day to day work. He continued to pastor St. John’s Church in Atlanta, attend Synod gatherings, and, if I recall correctly, was even nominated for bishop while off the roster. I mention this because some people imagine that he suffered a cruel injustice at the hands of the church. The truth is that he will probably never again enjoy the level of adulation that he had while off the roster.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 05:08:32 PM by mj4 »

Charles Austin

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 06:16:58 PM »
And when he received a nomination for Bishop, another protest move, that nomination was ruled ineligible.
He did not suffer a “cruel injustice,” He was treated according to our “laws” at the time.
however he was willing to take the penalties for his actions, And by taking the penalties undoubtedly gained some sympathy for the cause he was espousing.
It is therefore easy to see why he has some standing within the minds of certain communities.
Back in the ancient days of the 1960s and 70s, the Roman Catholic Berrigan brothers gained both notoriety and respect For their actions opposing war and militarism. And literally hundreds of civil rights advocates went to jail or suffered other penalties for the sake of their cause.
If, years later, when we have seen the justice of their cause, is there anything wrong with giving them a little respect?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 07:39:54 PM »
He did not suffer a “cruel injustice,” He was treated according to our “laws” at the time.
however he was willing to take the penalties for his actions, And by taking the penalties undoubtedly gained some sympathy for the cause he was espousing.

What penalties?
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Charles Austin

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 07:45:22 PM »
Steven writes:
What penalties?

I comment:
He was off the clergy roster, making him less eligible for a call save for congregations wishing to risk expulsion from the ELCA for calling him. He did not know how long the suspension might be or whether he would ever be restored.
This probably also had an impact on his pension or insurance standing.
But it was not the auto da fe or burning at the stake that some may have desired.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 08:01:13 PM »
Steven writes:
What penalties?

I comment:
He was off the clergy roster, making him less eligible for a call save for congregations wishing to risk expulsion from the ELCA for calling him. He did not know how long the suspension might be or whether he would ever be restored.
This probably also had an impact on his pension or insurance standing.
But it was not the auto da fe or burning at the stake that some may have desired.

Neither was it the boilerplate letter sent to numerous formerly ELCA clergy who incardinated with the NALC (and in  some cases, to the surrounding parishes) stating that they may not use the tile "Reverend", may not vest, may not in any way participate in the leadership of ELCA services even if invited.
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Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Charles Austin

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 09:11:23 PM »
I don't want to go down that road again after more than 10 years, but look....

Here were pastors who had declared their church body heretical or worse, left it or planned to leave it, often tried to take their churches and membership with them, and joined a church body formed only because it opposed the ELCA. They broadcast and celebrated their animus against the ELCA.
Heck yes, we didn't want them preaching in our parishes. Darn right we would tell them they could not longer represent themselves as clergy under our auspices.
Good grief.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 09:39:32 PM »
I don't want to go down that road again after more than 10 years, but look....
But you will anyway

Here were pastors who had declared their church body heretical or worse,
I don't remember too many, at least of those I know, who "declared their church body heretical or worse." People leave a church body all the time because they don't believe they can in conscience continue to serve it. That doesn't mean they "declare it heretical."

often tried to take their churches and membership with them

Very often left in order to stay with their church, which had decided to leave, whether they wanted to or not


and joined a church body formed only because it opposed the ELCA.

Formed because it disagreed strongly with some actions of the ELCA, not because it "opposed the ELCA"

They broadcast and celebrated their animus against the ELCA. 

Some did, some did not. Just as some ELCA pastors and bishops spewed venom against those who left, and some didn't.

Darn right we would tell them they could not longer represent themselves as clergy under our auspices.

I don't think any of those who left had any intention of "representing themselves as clergy under our auspices." But they had a view of ordination which was obviously more genuinely catholic than that of the ELCA leaders, who identified ordination with church roster status.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

mj4

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Re: Wednesday worship
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 10:49:27 PM »
Steven writes:
What penalties?

I comment:
He was off the clergy roster, making him less eligible for a call save for congregations wishing to risk expulsion from the ELCA for calling him. He did not know how long the suspension might be or whether he would ever be restored.
This probably also had an impact on his pension or insurance standing.
But it was not the auto da fe or burning at the stake that some may have desired.

Clearly, you are speculating and just making stuff up.