Author Topic: ELDoNA?  (Read 23620 times)

Charles_Austin

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2007, 10:47:44 PM »
No one can imagine how it tickles me to find that the LC-MS has its troublesome dissidents on the fringe. Of course Herman Otten has set the platinum standard, and gets points for persistence and staying power.

scott3

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2007, 10:57:06 PM »
No one can imagine how it tickles me to find that the LC-MS has its troublesome dissidents on the fringe. Of course Herman Otten has set the platinum standard, and gets points for persistence and staying power.

Glee?!?!  An expression of glee at another denomination's troubles?!?!  Moderator!  Oh, Moderator -- for the love of the children, please, please, please do something to make the horror stop!  Oh the humanity!!!

 ::)  ;D
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 11:02:13 PM by Scott._.Yakimow »

peter_speckhard

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2007, 11:11:36 PM »
The key to keeping gleeful, Charles, is to see the world as we see it; most of Christendom is just the troublesome fringes of the LCMS. That ought to keep you tickled until kingdom come. Be brave, Scott.

Gladfelteri

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2007, 11:40:26 PM »
+ Benke,

[snip]

Blessings,
+ + Irl Gladfelter

Ooo -- a bishop slap-down!  The + vs. the ++.  ;) ;D :D

[Would I be: - Yakimow?  Though I would prefer: * Yakimow]
Oops . . .  :-[  I did not intend it to come across that way . . .   :-\

Blessings,
+ Irl
« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 08:40:23 AM by Irl Gladfelter »

Grabauski

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2007, 11:45:53 PM »
I think you're making my point here, Eric.  If ELDoNA does NOT think there was "falseness" there at the convention

I didn't say that, though, did I?

EJG

Mel Harris

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2007, 02:39:38 AM »

[Would I be: - Yakimow?  Though I would prefer: * Yakimow]


Then why is your name at the top now listed as "._.Yakimow"?   ???

As I remember posting a while back, I think it likely that a "+" was placed upon you when you were baptized.

Mel Harris

ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2007, 07:21:34 AM »
What is the attraction leading some Lutherans to cross the Bosphorus (and by implication, the Tiber?)

I think there is some element in here of guys preferring the fancy duds and playing "dress up."


Seriously, I believe that Pres. Benke is correct that a good bit of the time it is a desire to find "security" and a highly authoritarian structure claiming divine right to make eternally binding decrees on the people of God offers a certain comfort to people who need that kind of thing. The romance of alleged "historic succession" is also important for some. Much more could be said, of course.

Gladfelteri

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2007, 08:27:21 AM »
Quote from Irl Gladfelter:  What is the attraction leading some Lutherans to cross the Bosphorus (and by implication, the Tiber?)

Answer by ptmccain:  I think there is some element in here of guys preferring the fancy duds and playing "dress up."

My comment:  That may be an element for some but if so that is unfortunate and is no reason to convert.

ptmccain observes:  Seriously, I believe that Pres. Benke is correct that a good bit of the time it is a desire to find "security" and a highly authoritarian structure claiming divine right to make eternally binding decrees on the people of God offers a certain comfort to people who need that kind of thing. The romance of alleged "historic succession" is also important for some. Much more could be said, of course.

My observation:  I agree.  Among possible reasons for choosing to "swim the Bosphorus" rather than the Tiber is that Eastern Orthodoxy considers the Roman Catholic Church to be heretical on a number of points, including the institution of the monarchial Papacy.  The Eastern Orthodox Churches are ruled by a Holy Synod (council of Bishops) presided over by a Patriarch who, while greatly respected, is only a "first among equals;"  and Constantinople seems to have no direct authority over the Autocephalous Churches.  Moral authorithy, yes, but not legal authority.  There is a sort of "rough democracy" in Eastern Orthodox  polity (I mean that in a good sense) which requires the assent / consent of the Bishops before any significant change in doctrine etc. really becomes effective.  For the Greek Church, the assent of a majority of the Monks on Mt. Athos seems to be important, etc.  Unlike Rome, Eastern Orthodoxy does not "fix the moment" of the real presence, or attempt to define it in other than rather general terms.

There are many other points which would seem to make Eastern Orthodoxy more comfortable than Roman Catholicism to someone coming out of conservative Lutheranism, but I will leave those to someone who has "crossed the Bosphorus" like Priest Robert McMeekin.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 08:42:43 AM by Irl Gladfelter »

R. T. Fouts

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2007, 09:53:38 AM »
Nice try Scott.

I just goolged "Scott Yakimow" and on the 2nd page an entry from this APLB forum came up, showing you as Scott._.Yakimow.   

You've been out-smarted by Google, Scott.   :P   
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pilgrimpriest

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2007, 10:59:10 AM »
Quote from Irl Gladfelter:  What is the attraction leading some Lutherans to cross the Bosphorus (and by implication, the Tiber?)

Answer by ptmccain:  I think there is some element in here of guys preferring the fancy duds and playing "dress up."

My comment:  That may be an element for some but if so that is unfortunate and is no reason to convert.

ptmccain observes:  Seriously, I believe that Pres. Benke is correct that a good bit of the time it is a desire to find "security" and a highly authoritarian structure claiming divine right to make eternally binding decrees on the people of God offers a certain comfort to people who need that kind of thing. The romance of alleged "historic succession" is also important for some. Much more could be said, of course.

My observation:  I agree.  Among possible reasons for choosing to "swim the Bosphorus" rather than the Tiber is that Eastern Orthodoxy considers the Roman Catholic Church to be heretical on a number of points, including the institution of the monarchial Papacy.  The Eastern Orthodox Churches are ruled by a Holy Synod (council of Bishops) presided over by a Patriarch who, while greatly respected, is only a "first among equals;"  and Constantinople seems to have no direct authority over the Autocephalous Churches.  Moral authorithy, yes, but not legal authority.  There is a sort of "rough democracy" in Eastern Orthodox  polity (I mean that in a good sense) which requires the assent / consent of the Bishops before any significant change in doctrine etc. really becomes effective.  For the Greek Church, the assent of a majority of the Monks on Mt. Athos seems to be important, etc.  Unlike Rome, Eastern Orthodoxy does not "fix the moment" of the real presence, or attempt to define it in other than rather general terms.

There are many other points which would seem to make Eastern Orthodoxy more comfortable than Roman Catholicism to someone coming out of conservative Lutheranism, but I will leave those to someone who has "crossed the Bosphorus" like Priest Robert McMeekin.

The short course is like this (and forgive the terseness I'm on a tight schedule this morning):

1. The visible head of the Church on Earth is Christ in the Eucharist surrounded by His bishops, priests, deacons and people gathered in the one true faith as proclaimed in the Scriptures and defined by the Creed (Nicene-Constantinopolitan), and as faithfully taught in the Divine Liturgy, Holy Tradition (capital "T") and the teachings of the fathers. (Luther agrees with us on this point at least: there is no "Vicar of Christ" as "vicar" implies an absence of someone. Christ is present and ruling in His Church, not absent.)

2. Apostolic Succession is a succession of teaching and fellowship (Acts 2:42) among those set apart for the episcopal and priestly offices as a stewardship of the truth. (An understanding implicit in previous Lutheran ordinals, but somehow lost to those lusting after ECUSA orders... weird!)

3. If any one departs from the faith (vis a vis heresy or apostasy) they have, by their own volition, excommunicated themselves from the Church.

4. If a bishop or priest teaches contrary to the faith they are considered "anaxios" (unworthy) and the people should neither listen to them or acknowledge them as bishops or priests (and I have heard of the laity shouting down an Orthodox bishop with "anaxios!" and turning their backs on Him for permitting a female Episcopal priest to process vested in his cathedral at an "ecumenical" service).

5. The ministry of the proclamation of the Word of God is the right and the responsibility of all the baptized "royal priesthood" in the Church. The Bishops and priests are set apart as teachers of Orthodoxy, and to administer the holy mysteries (sacraments). They stand at the altar when required to serve, and among the laity at all other times.

Again, sorry for the brevity and tone. Gotta run.

Fr. Bob

ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2007, 11:26:26 AM »
Anyway -- this should fool them...

Scott, maybe "Yakky Maw" would do as well?

: )

ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2007, 11:50:57 AM »
Reminds me of an old Irish blessing/curse:

May those who love us love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if He doesn't turn their hearts,
May he turn their ankles,
So we'll know them by their limping.



jafrahm

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2007, 04:11:50 PM »
I believe ELDoNA is comprised entirely or nearly entirely of former LCMS pastors.  www.eldona.org

Many of those involved with ELDoNA are also involved with the Augustana Ministerium, which is not a new synod or church body, but does cross synod/church body lines.
www.augustanaministerium.org

ELDoNA, as seen in previous posts by others, is attempting to deliberately go slowly in its development.  But I can't speak to that much further as I am not a member of it.


ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2007, 06:35:06 PM »
I'd be curious why Pr. Stefanski is not a member of ELDoNA.

And, is it just me, or is the name a bit on the grandiose-sounding side?


LCMS87

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2007, 07:20:31 PM »
I'd be curious why Pr. Stefanski is not a member of ELDoNA.

And, is it just me, or is the name a bit on the grandiose-sounding side?

Which name, Pr. Stefanski or ELDoNA?