ELDoNA?

[ptmccain]

Dave, your comment reminded me of another truly odd moment in the convention when the delegate moved to exclude Loehe from the fathers whose birthdays we will be commemorating.

[Grabauski]

Just calling it as I, and many others, see it, Eric.

No Missouri Synod father would have thought of attending a Lutheran church body's convention that they regarded to be heterodox and sit in the back and have "conversations" with people "willing to talk to them." We both know what's going on here.

Complaining about a thread is just silly...and perpetuates what you are complaining about.

The ELDoNA guys were not sitting in the back and having conversations with anyone. They observed. That's what was going on. I know what's going on, because I actually saw it.

As to their hospitality suite, the most obvious purpose carried out by it was the advertising of those who were not allowed to advertise in the convention hall: Vox Visuals, The Augustana Ministerium, and so on.

It is sad that Missourianism tends to make people so cynical and expecting of devious motives. It's bad enough when you apply such judgments to one another, but it seems that no one is immune from being suspect to those who are in such a divided and contentious body.

EJG

[Grabauski]

My view is that ELDoNA is lonely and wants to come home. 

Mine--actually knowing those involved--is that ELDoNA considers itself to be at home and went to offer to support to the struggling, especially to those who contacted its bishop because they've had enough of Missouri's falseness ("a very pleasant time of contention was had by all on the convention floor, as every decision advanced a false teaching agenda, after which all merrily went to their seminary's reception," etc.).

EJG

[ptmccain]

You have a point Eric and if I have in fact judged hearts and motives, I am sorry.

It just seems to me however that it is a bit odd to advertise the ELDONA presence before the convention and its presence in a hospitality suite, open to inquirers. Such actions, to me, give the appearance of sheep stealing and I just don't think that is right.

Motivations may well be pure and high-minded, but I do not think it is right to do this kind of thing.

That's my opinion.

[Dave Benke]

I would want to tack on to Paul's point here this proviso - when speaking of "false teaching" and "false teaching agenda," Eric, add a healthy dose of "in the opinion of ELDoNA and its ilk" before completing the sentence.  I just put "and its ilk" in there because of the word "ilk."  Very much under-utilized. 

But really, if ELDoNA is our LCMS de facto magisterium, they ought to be paid, and paid handsomely.  And get some serious mike time.  And finally, donate that long frock coat to a needy East-Coast bishop because they'll have the money for the garb upgrades.

Dave Benke

[Grabauski]

I would want to tack on to Paul's point here this proviso - when speaking of "false teaching" and "false teaching agenda," Eric, add a healthy dose of "in the opinion of ELDoNA and its ilk" before completing the sentence.  I just put "and its ilk" in there because of the word "ilk."  Very much under-utilized.

Just to clarify: the quotation marks were not meant to be a quote of ELDoNA, but of the mood of the LCMS convention. Thus, when speaking of "false teaching" and "false teaching agenda," it was not "in the opinion of ELDoNA and its ilk," but simply in the understanding of this writer both during and after the convention--and as much or more because of my reading of the 'conservatives' as of the JF crowd. The 'right' has come home talking about how pleasant everything was, and reckoning the convention as if they hadn't lost on every issue and nearly every seat on the boards, just because people were civil to them (even to those who were at the mic continuously...the chief sign of poor organization).

Fwiw,

EJG

[Grabauski]

Motivations may well be pure and high-minded, but I do not think it is right to do this kind of thing.

That's my opinion.

To which you are certainly entitled and with which I, in part, sympathize. From my interactions with the ELDoNA guys, though, I don't think that 'sheep stealing' ('shepherd stealing'?) was an aim.

EJG

[Gladfelteri]

I think there's a thread out there waiting to be needled on the attraction of the Orthodox churches for Lutheran pastors . . . Anyway, what's the attraction?  It would be easy to pick at the many law-oriented practices revelatory of doctrinal differences.  However, my sense is that at the core the attraction for pastors is a secure ecclesiology, a sense of church being Church that includes holy orders. 

That seems, IMHO, to be true for those who want to "return Home" whether that Home is across the Bosphorus or the Tiber.  I would add to your short list, a sense of History.  I believe it was John Henry Cardinal Newman who wrote something to the effect that, "to be deep in History is to cease to be a Protestant." (Not all EC's see Lutheranism as Protestant, nor do they see themselves as Protestants except in the sense of not being under the authority of the Pope.)

At any rate, every now and then someone wonders out loud - or in print - whether or not the desire to heal the wounds of the 16th century and reunite with Holy Mother Church is a fundamental "internal logic" which lies deep in the heart of Evangelical Catholic Lutheranism.  (Personally, I think they are right.  It is.)  Among the EC's who have internalized that, and feel impelled to contribute to the reunion of the Church, some see Rome as "Home."  Others see Eastern Orthodoxy as "Home," as being closer to the ideals of the early Lutheran reformers and closer to the Patristic era Church; so they "swim the Bosphorus" rather than the Tiber.  It could be as simple as that.

[ptmccain]

Reunite with Holy Mother Church? We are already in "holy mother church" so no reunification is necessary.

"The Church is the mother that begets and bears all Christians by the Word of God."

No need to be in visible union with the three crowned bishop in Rome for that!

[Dave Benke]

I think you're making my point here, Eric.  If ELDoNA does NOT think there was "falseness" there at the convention and was just receiving those in the LCMS who opined with you that falseness indeed prevailed, then maybe ELDoNA DOESN"T think there's "falseness" in Missouri, and were warding off the grumpies.  If that's the case, then they'll need to request that mass re-instatement interview that Dan and I want them to apply for.  In which case
a) they will tell the "false-folk" to cease and desist and
b) they will have no use for that long frock coat unless and until one of them is elected as a DP in a saltwater district.  What with global warming, that eventual saltwater district could be Central Illinois!  But for now, the coat of one color (or is it all colors) should rest in eastern New York.  One man's opinion.

Dave Benke

[Gladfelteri]

Reunite with Holy Mother Church? We are already in "holy mother church" so no reunification is necessary.

"The Church is the mother that begets and bears all Christians by the Word of God."

No need to be in visible union with the three crowned bishop in Rome for that!

I was responding to + Benke's question as to what was the attraction leading what is apparently a small but steady stream of Lutherans across the Bosphorus (and by implication, the Tiber.)  Your statement is a fair representation of LCMS ecclesiology, but doesn't address + Benke's question as to what might be the attraction of Eastern Orthodoxy to Lutherans who have chosen become Eastern Orthodox.

While your statement is what I would expect to hear from a mainstream LCMS pastor, keep in mind that many Evangelical Catholic Lutherans - not Confessing Evangelicals, now, but Evangelical Catholics (including but not limited to those who are swimming the Tiber and the Bosphorus,) who do not see themselves or Lutheranism, for that matter, as really Protestant, have a different ecclesiology, and a different set of imperitives steming from that ecclesiology.   Here, we have to simply agree to disagree.

Do you have an answer to + Benke's question?

Blessings,
Irl

[ptmccain]

No, Irl, my statement is a fair representation of the theology of the Lutheran Confessions, not merely "LCMS Ecclesiology." Granted, your sect has embraced a mixtum compositum of confessions, but it by no means the case that you are representing historic Lutheranism. The Papacy's claims about itself have no validity or legitimacy and must be rejected precisely for the sake of the Evangel. And there is nothing "catholic" about what is uniquely Roman in Roman Catholicism.

As for Pres. Benke's question: what question?

[Gladfelteri]

Incidently, + Benke, welcome to the ALPB Forum Online.  I hope you stay, and respond to other threads of discussion in addition to this one.  And while your participation in that Memorial after 9-11 was controversial - at least within the LCMS, some of us applaud you for your participation.  That was a painful, extrordinary time.  You did well, In my humble opinion.  Thanks!

Blessings,
+ + Irl Gladfelter

[Gladfelteri]

No, Irl, my statement is a fair representation of the theology of the Lutheran Confessions, not merely "LCMS Ecclesiology." Granted, your sect has embraced a mixtum compositum of confessions, but it by no means the case that you are representing historic Lutheranism. The Papacy's claims about itself have no validity or legitimacy and must be rejected precisely for the sake of the Evangel. And there is nothing "catholic" about what is uniquely Roman in Roman Catholicism.

As a lawyer might say, exception noted.  (And respected.)  This is area in which we simply differ;  "agree to disagree" and move on . . .  There are still areas in which there are common interests which we can work together to advance.
 
So, how do you answer + Benke's question?  What is the attraction leading some Lutherans to cross the Bosphorus (and by implication, the Tiber?)

Blessings,
Irl

[scott3]

+ Benke,

[snip]

Blessings,
+ + Irl Gladfelter

Ooo -- a bishop slap-down!  The + vs. the ++. 

[Would I be: - Yakimow?  Though I would prefer: * Yakimow]