ELDoNA?

[Charles_Austin]

Wow. A group of people who thought the LC-MS dead wrong, left it, and still show up to trouble it. At least they had the integrity to leave it.

[Dave_Poedel]

EJG:  Eric, we don't use pseudonyms here...besides, as a fellow Pole, everyone knows that your spelling of your pseudonym is not the traditional Grabowski spelling ....just a FYI.... ....but you will probably inform me that yours is the CORRECT spelling.....

[Dave Benke]

Dan,

I was speaking about ELDoNA's attire.  We're very style conscious here in the Northeast.  I received a wonderful bishop's cassock replete with the appropriately-colored buttons, piping and sash from a pastor on the anniversary of his ordination.  I thought the pictures had wandered westward and ELDoNAns were taking their sartorial cues from me.

As to denominational affiliation, the comments of Grabauski (is that short for Grabau?  If so, I and many in the land of LCMS/ALPB take a mediating position between Grabau and Walther = Loehe), which were on the toughish side of the ALPB-meter but right down the middle of the neo-Flacian punch-n-poke contingent, would lead me to understand that the lads were heretofore in the LCMS.  In that case, as one who was asked to leave, I could scarcely request them to do the same.  That would be churlish.  On the other hand, apparently they've already left.

So - come back, ELDoNA!  Come to the salty waters of Atlantic, where Almy and Slabbinck are handy to transit.  You can come with me to Chiarelli's in Ozone Park, the gourmet clergy garment barn of Queens.  We'll take the A Train to Pitkin Avenue.  You'll find me to be a kindly bishop in the manner of Loehe.

Dave Benke

[Daniel L. Gard]

Dan,

I was speaking about ELDoNA's attire.  We're very style conscious here in the Northeast.  I received a wonderful bishop's cassock replete with the appropriately-colored buttons, piping and sash from a pastor on the anniversary of his ordination.  I thought the pictures had wandered westward and ELDoNAns were taking their sartorial cues from me.

Dave Benke

Thanks, Dave, I appreciate the clarification.  I wonder if anyone will use Roger Pittelko style bishop's shirts..or maybe borrow one from President Wollengerg? I never thought of the COP as style setters.  Maybe a new magazine, BQ - Bishop's Quarterly.

[Grabauski]

EJG:  Eric, we don't use pseudonyms here...besides, as a fellow Pole, everyone knows that your spelling of your pseudonym is not the traditional Grabowski spelling ....just a FYI.... ....but you will probably inform me that yours is the CORRECT spelling.....

Dave, I just now saw the "quote" button above your post, so I am still learning the parameters of the board. Unfortunately, more people are able to identify 'Grabauski' than 'Stefanski', as it has been my typical signature on the 'net since the late 80s, early 90s. Thus, by no means is it used to hide who I am, etc.

As to the spelling, it's not a matter of being correct, but of being a corrective to a district president who was fond of calling me "The Polish Stefan," which seemed not a good thing with the spectre of morals charges still hanging over his head. This being about the time that a short term seminary president was referring to anyone with a non-Hoeflingite view of the Ministry as a Grabauite, Grabau_ski seemed a better alternative.

Point of Trivia: perhaps the most famous of the Grabowskis actually lives near me, too...Norm 'Woo Woo' Grabowski, aka 'Treble' on the "Batman" series, Petoski on "Canonball Run," something or other else on "Hooper," etc...I run into him now and again at Wal-Mart. Of course, Randy Weaver and Thom Robb also live in the area (not that I am linking the two of them!), whatever that means.

BTW, our family is not related to most of the Stefanskis you meet; therefore, we intentionally mispronounce our own name, too.

Now, let me see if I can design a footer... (after which, I'll probably stop posting...)

EJG

[Grabauski]

As to denominational affiliation, the comments of Grabauski (is that short for Grabau?  If so, I and many in the land of LCMS/ALPB take a mediating position between Grabau and Walther = Loehe), which were on the toughish side of the ALPB-meter but right down the middle of the neo-Flacian punch-n-poke contingent, would lead me to understand that the lads were heretofore in the LCMS.  In that case, as one who was asked to leave, I could scarcely request them to do the same.  That would be churlish.  On the other hand, apparently they've already left.

So - come back, ELDoNA!  Come to the salty waters of Atlantic, where Almy and Slabbinck are handy to transit.  You can come with me to Chiarelli's in Ozone Park, the gourmet clergy garment barn of Queens.  We'll take the A Train to Pitkin Avenue.  You'll find me to be a kindly bishop in the manner of Loehe.

Y'know, it's like dealing with my Baptist neighbors: as long as we're in separate church bodies and don't pretend we're the same, we get along very well. Either of us being outside of the LCMS makes you a much more likable guy. Unfortunately, I think that your leaving would have had a much greater positive impact on Missouri than mine did.

EJG (now with a working signature, but still a zero post count, evidently an evaluation of quality)

[Dave Benke]

I like your candor, Eric.  My sense for the longest time has been that the gnesio-Lutheran substrata on the right edge of the LCMS and sort of in the mainstream of the ELS and WELS is dependent on Reformed theological processes.  The evangelical and catholic phraseology that I find helpful in describing Lutheranism is time-tested and in use in many areas of practice - does this (whatever the issue) pass the evangelical test - does it come down on the side of the Gospel?  Does this pass the catholic test - does it have universal applicability for the Church now and through the ages?  I find that process of discernment to be helpful in forming a dynamic and centrist Lutheran movement not only here in the US but around the world for the future.

One of the side benefits (or deficits, depending on your view) of my suspension and subsequent release has been seen in the much-discussed dispute resolution process.  At a certain appeal level, the appellant can name a District President to be on the three-person panel.  The respondent DP names one, and a third is chosen.  I've been on a flotilla of those panels since coming off suspension.  I think the appellants are thinking "he can feel my pain."  Which I do.  Appropriately, of course.  So consider yours felt.

Dave Benke

[Gladfelteri]

They seem to be disaffected LC-MS folks... but I'm not sure on that.  Any help would be appreciated, so I can better understand their answers to the interview questions!

Yup.  That is what they are.  I spent some time talking to their Primate about a year or so ago, and though things may have changed since then, at that time they had not really moved very far from the LCMS other than in polity.

Yet, it was more than that, too: it was the LCMS 'system'--Walther's experiment fallen into horrible abuse that led to such goings on. Thus, the formation of a system that is not like the American 'synods', nor yet like the state church episcopacies...a system in which there is no coercive power exercised over congregations, but in which the Superintendent's/Bishop's relationship is with the pastors and not with the parishes.

Again from my discussion with their Primate, they are much more congregational than you might think.  As a group, they were not really interested in moving into the historic apostolic succession at that time.  (The Primate seemed to be, but the other Pastors were wary of taking that step, and he could not do anything along those lines without their approval.) 

The Bishops' relationship with the pastors as it was explained to me, seemed to be sort of a "first among equals," who's authority was combination of a coordinator similar to an old ALC Bishop, with some elements of the Moravian Church model where the Bishop's role is that of the guarantor of orthodoxy and the one who performs ordinations.  Things may have changed since then.

[LutherMan]

EJG (now with a working signature, but still a zero post count, evidently an evaluation of quality)

Some of the best posts have come from those 'stuck' at a zero count on the LCMS convention reports. 

[John Rutowicz]

Hello.

With all of this talk about Polaks, North-eastern culture and clothing, and Grabau, I just couldn't resist coming on here.  Yes, I am the so called "diocesan leader" wafting through the halls of the convention giving out command-tones to my mindless drones.  Actually, I'm just one of the mindless drones who happens to like frock coats.

One of my goals in wearing the coat (besides simply dressing like a Lutheran pastor) was to grab attention.  Obviously I've accomplished that goal.  Being mocked by none other than the famous Dr. David Benke, I feel somehow honored.  Well, I'm not offended, but I didn't think I was all that frightening.  At least I wasn't wearing the Missouri Synod clerical uniform - the polo shirt.

I will not speak for ELDoNA, only for myself, but ELDoNA is trying to simply be Lutheran in doctrine and practice.  We're not ecumenists.  We don't worship the 1932 Brief Statement.  We're not trying to be more Missouri than Missouri.  We think the world needs an essentially 16th century Lutheranism, gently updated for the 21st century.  We don't want anything to do with Pietism, Rationalsm, Ecumenism, or Revivalism.  We want a fully liturgical, sacramental form of Lutheranism, and we know one thing for certain, the LCMS isn't it.  The LCMS is just the most respectable form of Baptist-like Protestantism in America.

I probably would have left the LCMS eventually anyway not only because of various doctrinal problems, but because of the Baptist flavor of the whole thing, but yes Dr. Benke, your Yankee Stadium "event" and the synod's subsequent approval and advocacy of such syncretism was the last straw for me.  Now, I'm sure you're a very personable man, but I could not be in fellowship with you, nor President Kieschnick.  I believe that salvation itself is at stake when one engages in syncretism or has fellowship with those who are unrepentant for syncretism.

Missouri has nothing to fear from ELDoNA.  ELDoNA will, no doubt, always be a very small group of people, and not very appealing to most Missourians.  And besides, I would think Dr. Benke would like the message we give to LCMS conservatives.  We essentially tell them to stop fighting for control of the institution and be true to their confession.

Now, I give myself over to whatever criticism you would like to make.

Pastor John Rutowicz
St. Boniface Ev. Lutheran Church
Niles, MI
(a.k.a. The Grand Master of Command-Tones)

[janielou13]

Where ever did you find a real frock coat ??  Norm Nagel in his Valparaiso incarnation wore one with knee breeches and buckled shoes,,,,,,, really wowed the undergrads.  He brought the outfit back with him after his Cambridge days,,, it looked more smart than silly, actually, and Nagel was made for it and it for him.

Suppose now Wippell's is the closest place to find one,,,,,,, one hopes it wouldn't set off the Homeland Secutiry strange alien alarm when it got to customs.

[scott3]

Oh Grand-Master of the Commanding Tones,

I'm curious to hear a bit more about you guys, so I have at least two questions for you just by way of information.

First, why did you see it necessary to start your own denomination rather than joining an existing denomination?  If the big ones didn't seem appropriate (ELCA, LCMS, WELS and perhaps ELS, if they can be considered "big"), what about some of the other micro-synods?

Second, could you please flesh out your statement: "I believe that salvation itself is at stake when one engages in syncretism or has fellowship with those who are unrepentant for syncretism" a bit more?  Thanks.

[John Rutowicz]

Where ever did you find a real frock coat ?? 

http://www.clergyapparel.com/

John Rutowicz

[Grabauski]

First, why did you see it necessary to start your own denomination rather than joining an existing denomination?  If the big ones didn't seem appropriate (ELCA, LCMS, WELS and perhaps ELS, if they can be considered "big"), what about some of the other micro-synods?

Perhaps you missed the earlier posting on this: http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=676.msg19818#msg19818

EJG

[John Rutowicz]

First, why did you see it necessary to start your own denomination rather than joining an existing denomination?  If the big ones didn't seem appropriate (ELCA, LCMS, WELS and perhaps ELS, if they can be considered "big"), what about some of the other micro-synods?

I am not aware of other appropriate micro-synods.

Second, could you please flesh out your statement: "I believe that salvation itself is at stake when one engages in syncretism or has fellowship with those who are unrepentant for syncretism" a bit more?  Thanks.

Well, I'm not quite sure how to flesh it out, but I guess I'd start by saying Jesus is the only way of salvation.  One must be in Him to be saved.  Worshipping other gods puts one outside of Christ.  Having fellowship with such a person causes one to share in his wickedness.

I know you're probably looking for more than that, but that's the basic idea.

Rutowicz