Author Topic: ELDoNA?  (Read 23692 times)

pilgrimpriest

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2007, 01:35:10 PM »
Where ever did you find a real frock coat ?? 

http://www.clergyapparel.com/

John Rutowicz

Everything for the man or woman who would be Pope, Archbishop of Titipu, or High-priest of Kahless the Unforgettable. I especially liked the white and gold-edged cassocks... a guy could become some kind of Super-Pope with that one! :)

Priest Robert

ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2007, 01:37:08 PM »
I did not get the memo that "frock coats" are required to appear as a Lutheran pastor.

Is it just me, but is it just a little sad, and weird, that the entire ALPB's excellent live blogging category of the recent convention now has been reduced, seemingly, to conversations about ELDONA, an organization consisting of seven or so pastors and even fewer congregations?


Dave Benke

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2007, 01:45:38 PM »
John,

As one estimable diocesan leader to another, my comments on things sartorial could never be taken as mockery, surely, because of the old adage, "imitation is the most sincere form of flattery." †Here on ALPB-Bay, maybe we can do some garment-swapping so I can get my hands on that frock coat. †I'm thinking you ordered the regular one, though, and not the bishop's one; I only saw you and yours from a bit of a distance so I couldn't be sure. †If so, you need to take the upgrade and get me the one you're wearing. †We're not allowed to use the term "bishop" anyway in the LCMS so I need the clothes to make the point; there was an overture to the last synod convention to assess a $500 fine for such usage, by which we in the Atlantic Diocese (oops, District) would have brought in thousands and thousands of Tetzelian coin into the coffers, had the overture been passed.

As to syncretism, your error as I see it is in establishing hard and fast "fellowship" rubrics for civic events and then making them divisive of and terminal to eucharistic or church fellowship within your denominational group. †As you're aware, this whole dialog is in its third or fourth CTCR rescension. †Beneath that, I believe the practical question to you is what what constitutes a conscience-binder of the degree that mandates leaving your denominational fellowship. †

I don't believe I've ever met or conversed with you, so your decision to boogie from the LCMS was made absent any contact with me and based on whatever public information and denomational decisions you had. †And let's face it, if you're going to boogie, you may as well do so elegantly, and you have accomplished that.

Dave Benke

janielou13

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2007, 02:28:22 PM »
In lieu of 'let's all just get along' perhaps a better solution would be for all just to become synods of one,,,,,,,,, then everone could be a bishop, and I'll buy stock in Wippell's.

John Rutowicz

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2007, 03:38:01 PM »
Dear Dr. Benke

Thanks for the upgrade to elegant.  Perhaps someday I may meet you when I'm visiting my family in Connecticut.  I agree with Father Stefanski that it is much easier to be civil and relaxed when our fates are not intertwined.  Hopefully some day we may see eye-to-eye, but I think it was much better that I left because there was no middle ground to be had.

Just as a matter of clarification, I am not the bishop nor any kind of diocesan leader.  Iím a simple parish pastor with a frock coat and a beautiful set of chasubles, so at least I can be insignificant in style.

Of course, five baptisms, four conformations, two funerals, and one wedding in the last three years isnít so bad for a congregation of 25.

Pr. Rutowicz

John Rutowicz

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2007, 03:40:57 PM »
Is it just me,

Yes, it's just you.

but is it just a little sad, and weird,

aww!  Having a bad day?  Here's a smiley face for you.   :)

Richard Johnson

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2007, 03:43:09 PM »

Of course, five baptisms, four conformations,

I've been trying to get people to conform in my parish for 23 years. How do you do it?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

scott3

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2007, 03:48:47 PM »
First, why did you see it necessary to start your own denomination rather than joining an existing denomination?† If the big ones didn't seem appropriate (ELCA, LCMS, WELS and perhaps ELS, if they can be considered "big"), what about some of the other micro-synods?

Perhaps you missed the earlier posting on this: http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=676.msg19818#msg19818

EJG

Yep, I did.  Thanks.

scott3

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2007, 03:51:03 PM »
I know you're probably looking for more than that, but that's the basic idea.

You're probably right, but that's enough to sate my curiosity for now.  Thanks.

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2007, 11:14:21 AM »
This thread has been interesting to read and I cannot resist offering my own thoughts.

I am one who resists splits in the Synod and argue for the continuation of our fellowship.  With that said, I do appreciate the integrity which drives some like the ELDoNA pastors to leave the LC-MS.  I may disagree with their decision but I believe they reached it as a matter of conscience.

Incidently, I have never persoanally read or heard an ELDoNA pastor condemn those who remain in the Synod. So I thank them for their willingness to let others also live by conscience.


ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2007, 06:33:08 PM »
One might however question the wisdom of ELDONA men attending a LCMS convention when clearly they are in the process of recruiting from the ranks of the LCMS ministerium, then taking umbrage that their presence was not formally "recognized" as if they are simply another Lutheran church body observing the convention. There is something unseemly about this situation of the ELDONA presence at The LCMS convention. Some may understandably describe it as "sheep stealing." It reminds me of the time a gaggle of Greek Orthodox priests/former-LCMS pastors showed up at a LCMS conference doing their best to woo men away from their calling in The LCMS.

I may respect the fact that they are taking a principled stand (even if I do not agree with them), and their right to follow the dictates of their conscience, but I do not agree with their presence at a LCMS convention and regard the "air time" they have received seems to be well out of proportion to their significance.


« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 06:54:47 PM by ptmccain »

pilgrimpriest

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2007, 09:03:11 PM »
It reminds me of the time a gaggle of Greek Orthodox priests/former-LCMS pastors showed up at a LCMS conference doing their best to woo men away from their calling in The LCMS.

:( Tacky. Especially since were it in reverse they'd have been promptly shown the door. Apologies by proxy.

Fr. Bob

Grabauski

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2007, 09:11:03 PM »
One might however question the wisdom of ELDONA men attending a LCMS convention when clearly they are in the process of recruiting from the ranks of the LCMS ministerium, then taking umbrage that their presence was not formally "recognized"

I do not agree with their presence at a LCMS convention and regard the "air time" they have received seems to be well out of proportion to their significance.

I think we might do well to speak only the truth about them, Paul.

1. They were not "recruiting" any more than the presiding bishop of ELCA was. That they are being contacted by some LCMS guys should not prevent their attendance any more than it would prevent John Molstad's, etc. (Of course, some of the ELS guys and WELS guys are checking out ELDoNA, too.

2. They took no "umbrage" about not being recognized; they took umbrage that the dissenting pastor was not having his dissent dealt with...that dissent in Missouri is as Consensus said it would be a couple of years ago: "futile."

3. The thought that they should not appear at an LCMS convention is tantamount to their not appearing anywhere within Lutheranism, because there are pastors all over who are making inquiry of them. More, though, all but one of their pastors left Missouri after the 2004 convention, and they desired to attend this one as a matter of 'confirmation'...to gain firsthand knowledge of Missouri continuing to go in the direction they thought it was going.

4. Missouri was small and orthodox once, too...and got far more attention than it should have; some would say it still does get too much attention. Be that as it may, the nature of a conversation is that it goes in whatever direction its participants desire; in this case, they have desired to talk about ELDoNA; those that don't want to hear it could, conceivably, walk away by not reading messages in this topic area. Perhaps that would be a more appropriate reaction than complaining about what others wish to discuss...especially when several of the posts have simply sought to clarify misinformation and groundless grousing...which, nonetheless, continues.

EJG

ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2007, 10:32:42 PM »
Just calling it as I, and many others, see it, Eric.

No Missouri Synod father would have thought of attending a Lutheran church body's convention that they regarded to be heterodox and sit in the back and have "conversations" with people "willing to talk to them." We both know what's going on here.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 06:35:02 AM by ptmccain »

Dave Benke

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2007, 07:44:45 AM »
I think there's a thread out there waiting to be needled on the attraction of the Orthodox churches for Lutheran pastors.  Jery Pelikan (+) has been the most notable of the contingent, but it's my understanding that there's a sizable group that has been migrating in the midwest.   St. Vladimir's Seminary is right down the block from Concordia Bronxville, and the newly arrived clergy here in the Atlantic District tend to take graduate courses either at St. Vlad's or at Fordham, so there's plenty of cross-fertilization. 

Anyway, what's the attraction?  It would be easy to pick at the many law-oriented practices revelatory of doctrinal differences.  However, my sense is that at the core the attraction for pastors is a secure ecclesiology, a sense of church being Church that includes holy orders.   

ELDoNA at the very least dresses the part. 

Arguing for an evangelical catholic Lutheran core is from my point of view productive of assisting those considering jumping the fence in any direction to participate in what is ecclesiologically our elegant Lutheran leanness a la Loehe, for example,  while understanding that the more diverse expressions of life in the Body that mandatorily accompany a larger national denomination are not only to be tolerated, but are to be celebrated.

My view is that ELDoNA is lonely and wants to come home. 

Dave Benke