The fate of the nation (A topic as serious as female lectors or gay clergy)

Started by Charles Austin, February 28, 2019, 06:49:50 AM

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Steven Tibbetts

Quote from: David Garner on November 08, 2019, 12:03:42 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on November 07, 2019, 03:29:32 AM
And what you mean to say, Steven, is:
You don't like anything Brian says or how he says it.
You believe he is always wrong.
Since you always believe that, maybe you don't need to always say it.

What he said was literally wrong though.  This isn't a matter of subjective belief or bias.

Thank you, David, for your observation.  That is kind of you.

Pax, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

evangelical catholic

Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
Gosh, that Trump is just awful, awful awful!!!!!

There. I saved Charles fifteen hours and five hundred future posts.

A little off the topic but I looked you up, Pastor and was very impressed with St Paul's Church & School.

Does St Pauls accept Lutheran children raised by same-sex parents?

peter_speckhard

Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
Gosh, that Trump is just awful, awful awful!!!!!

There. I saved Charles fifteen hours and five hundred future posts.

A little off the topic but I looked you up, Pastor and was very impressed with St Paul's Church & School.

Does St Pauls accept Lutheran children raised by same-sex parents?
If you subscribed to Forum Letter you would have long ago received an entire article addressing  St. Paul, Munster's policy in that regard. Short answer, yes, with the stipulation that the child will be taught traditional, Christian sexual morality per the teachings of the LCMS. Actively undermining or advocating against our teachings can be grounds for dismissal from our community.

Several districts in the U.S., Canada, and Australia asked for permission to use our policy as a template for the development of their own policies as a result of reading it in Forum Letter.

evangelical catholic

Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 10:01:37 PM
Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
Gosh, that Trump is just awful, awful awful!!!!!

There. I saved Charles fifteen hours and five hundred future posts.

A little off the topic but I looked you up, Pastor and was very impressed with St Paul's Church & School.

Does St Pauls accept Lutheran children raised by same-sex parents?
If you subscribed to Forum Letter you would have long ago received an entire article addressing  St. Paul, Munster's policy in that regard. Short answer, yes, with the stipulation that the child will be taught traditional, Christian sexual mortality per the teachings of the LCMS. Actively undermining or advocating against our teachings can be grounds for dismissal from our community.

Several districts in the U.S., Canada, and Australia asked for permission to use our policy as a template for the development of their own policies as a result of reading it in Forum Letter.

Does St Paul's School allow LBGT teachers/ employees? Would a teacher be fired if Gay?

Dan Fienen

Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 10:05:59 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 10:01:37 PM
Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
Gosh, that Trump is just awful, awful awful!!!!!

There. I saved Charles fifteen hours and five hundred future posts.

A little off the topic but I looked you up, Pastor and was very impressed with St Paul's Church & School.

Does St Pauls accept Lutheran children raised by same-sex parents?
If you subscribed to Forum Letter you would have long ago received an entire article addressing  St. Paul, Munster's policy in that regard. Short answer, yes, with the stipulation that the child will be taught traditional, Christian sexual mortality per the teachings of the LCMS. Actively undermining or advocating against our teachings can be grounds for dismissal from our community.

Several districts in the U.S., Canada, and Australia asked for permission to use our policy as a template for the development of their own policies as a result of reading it in Forum Letter.

Does St Paul's School allow LBGT teachers/ employees? Would a teacher be fired if Gay?
Would such a teacher  e willing  to teach in accordance to traditional Christian sexual morality per the teachings of the LCMS?  I presume that actively undermining or advocating against LCMS teachings would be grounds for dismissal.  Would you have a problem with the school expecting teachers to abide be the sponsoring church's teachings?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

peter_speckhard

Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 10:05:59 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 10:01:37 PM
Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
Gosh, that Trump is just awful, awful awful!!!!!

There. I saved Charles fifteen hours and five hundred future posts.

A little off the topic but I looked you up, Pastor and was very impressed with St Paul's Church & School.

Does St Pauls accept Lutheran children raised by same-sex parents?
If you subscribed to Forum Letter you would have long ago received an entire article addressing  St. Paul, Munster's policy in that regard. Short answer, yes, with the stipulation that the child will be taught traditional, Christian sexual mortality per the teachings of the LCMS. Actively undermining or advocating against our teachings can be grounds for dismissal from our community.

Several districts in the U.S., Canada, and Australia asked for permission to use our policy as a template for the development of their own policies as a result of reading it in Forum Letter.

Does St Paul's School allow LBGT teachers/ employees? Would a teacher be fired if Gay?
A big part of why we're talking past each other is that you seem to be viewing homosexuality as constitutive of identity. The Bible never says, "Straight and Gay He created them." It says, "Male and female He created them." For all I know, many employees at St. Paul's, called and otherwise, might be sexually attracted to people of the same sex. People's sexual desires don't define them, and we don't define them that way. If they insist on being defined by their sexual attractions and further insist that same-sex behavior ought to be affirmed and celebrated, and that marriage is marriage irrespective of the male/female element, then they are teaching contrary to our doctrine, which would not be allowed.

Tom Eckstein

Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 11:17:54 PM
Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 10:05:59 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 10:01:37 PM
Quote from: evangelical catholic on November 08, 2019, 09:11:37 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on November 08, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
Gosh, that Trump is just awful, awful awful!!!!!

There. I saved Charles fifteen hours and five hundred future posts.

A little off the topic but I looked you up, Pastor and was very impressed with St Paul's Church & School.

Does St Pauls accept Lutheran children raised by same-sex parents?
If you subscribed to Forum Letter you would have long ago received an entire article addressing  St. Paul, Munster's policy in that regard. Short answer, yes, with the stipulation that the child will be taught traditional, Christian sexual mortality per the teachings of the LCMS. Actively undermining or advocating against our teachings can be grounds for dismissal from our community.

Several districts in the U.S., Canada, and Australia asked for permission to use our policy as a template for the development of their own policies as a result of reading it in Forum Letter.

Does St Paul's School allow LBGT teachers/ employees? Would a teacher be fired if Gay?
A big part of why we're talking past each other is that you seem to be viewing homosexuality as constitutive of identity. The Bible never says, "Straight and Gay He created them." It says, "Male and female He created them." For all I know, many employees at St. Paul's, called and otherwise, might be sexually attracted to people of the same sex. People's sexual desires don't define them, and we don't define them that way. If they insist on being defined by their sexual attractions and further insist that same-sex behavior ought to be affirmed and celebrated, and that marriage is marriage irrespective of the male/female element, then they are teaching contrary to our doctrine, which would not be allowed.

Peter, I appreciate your point that we should NOT base our identity on our sexual desires.  Whether one is a Christian or not, it has always seemed odd to me that anyone would make a public statement identifying him/herself as GAY.  For example, I don't introduce myself by saying:  "Hi!  I'm Tom.  I'm sexually attracted to women!"  Defining one's self primarily by one's sexual desire and behavior shows how we have taken a gift from God ("The two will become one flesh") and have turned it into an idol.

On another note, if an LCMS church worker confided in me (and some HAVE!) that he/she struggles with same-sex attraction but agrees with God that it is sinful, trusts in Christ for forgiveness, and strives to refrain from acting out on this sinful sexual desire, then I would have no problem with such a person continuing to serve as an LCMS church worker.
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Dan Fienen

Rep. Ilhan Omar is once again being criticized for tweets that are alleged to be dog whistle anti-semitic. Her supporters naturally deny that, point out that she supports Bernie Sanders who is Jewish, and complain that critics are obsessing over every little thing she says.


This accusation and defense of a Democratic woman of color is interesting in this era of hyper vigilance of Republicans and young white men in general for dog whistles of racism (use of a circled thumb and forefinger OK sign is proof positive that one is a white supremacist, no further evidence needed). In our political and social discourse have we on all side become too quick to accuse and condemn? Have we forgotten our Freud (sometimes a cigar is just a cigar)?


On the immigration thread the value of living in the same communities with people who are different is being praised. Yet in our national political discourse differences in outlook or ideas are immediately attacked not just as different, misguided, or mistaken, but as evil, signs of social pathology, immoral degeneration. Those who don't see things our way are a basket of deplorables, no working together possible.


This does not bode well for the fate of our nation.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

We know what you are against, Pastor Fienen, namely, anything held by a Democrat or a (OMG! NO!) "liberal".
But what are you for?
Again and again, you whine about how you believe "we" (Democrats, liberals) think you are so awful (or "deplorable" or stupid). "Poor us! You say such nasty things about us! You don't like us!"
But what are you for?
Civil rights? For gays?
Immigration? More? Or less? Citizenship for those here? Or deportation?
Abortion? Ban all abortions? How?
Trump? Investigate? Or leave him alone?
Communion? Hard closed? LCMS only? Presbyterians never? ELCA maybe?
Scripture? Six days? Hours in those days? Did we evolve? Or not?


Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. Often critical of the ELCA, but more often a defender of its mission. Ignoring the not-so-subtle rude insults which often appear here.

Dan Fienen

What I am for, in the post above, is more civil discourse, something that both Republicans and Democrats, left and right, liberals and conservatives are having a very difficult time engaging in. Something that your response demonstrates that you find difficult if not impossible.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

David Garner

I find this new leftist tactic here, the McCarthy-esque "what did you believe and when did you believe it" demands, both funny and telling.

Thankfully, best I can tell, it's limited to our friends here.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Charles Austin

Pastor Fienen:
Something that your response demonstrates that you find difficult if not impossible.
Me:
How can I have a "civil discourse" without knowing where the person on the other side of the discourse stands?
And come on, Mr. Garner! That's a ridiculous cheap shot.
Giving up again.
Iowa-born. Long-time in NY/New Jersey, former LWF staff in Geneva.
ELCA PASTOR, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. Often critical of the ELCA, but more often a defender of its mission. Ignoring the not-so-subtle rude insults which often appear here.

Dan Fienen

Charles (I am using the less formal first name address because I would like to talk with you as at least a cousin pastor [not of the same church body or discipline but of a Lutheran church body] or a colleague. )


Charles,  I have on many occasions expressed my position and opinion on most of the topics that you would quiz me on. Do I really have to post a long discourse on my opinion on all the contested issues of our era whenever I post any comment at all. Besides, since you already know what I am against, my positions, my motivations, the fears and social pathologies that drive me and what I really mean by what I post, why do I need to post anything? You can amply diagnose me and demonstrate how unworthy I am to engage in reasonable discourse with a humble correspondent such as yourself without me posting anything. You already know what I really mean so you don't need my input.

But I digress. My post was about civil discourse and how rare that is from all sides of the aisle.  If you want to talk about something else go on ahead.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Voelker

Quote from: David Garner on November 10, 2019, 08:43:52 AM
I find this new leftist tactic here, the McCarthy-esque "what did you believe and when did you believe it" demands, both funny and telling.

Thankfully, best I can tell, it's limited to our friends here.
It's sadly the new normal among many in the leftish younger set. What they — and those asking such questions — cannot abide is anyone else who is more than happy to live alongside those who disagree with them, who are both willing to leave their neighbors to live in peace while wanting themselves to be left to live in peace. Actual tolerance and neighborliness does not give Mrs Grundy a wedge. Far too many seek only the "peace" found in lockstep conformity or death. The treatment of close communion on this board is a fine example of this.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dan Fienen on November 10, 2019, 09:08:35 AM
But I digress. My post was about civil discourse and how rare that is from all sides of the aisle.  If you want to talk about something else go on ahead.


"Civil discourse" and proper "debate" are meant to uncover the truth together. Arguing seeks to win. Or, "I'm right and you're wrong" vs. "Let's try to discover the truth together."


Or, as a pinterest quote says: Discussions are always better than arguments, because an argument is to find out who is right and a discussion is to find out what is right.


I think that one of the problems in this forum is that what one person posts as a discussion topic - which may be what he believes, but is willing to hear what others say about it; is taken as an argument. Defenses rile up and a response is made to try and prove that I'm right rather than further the discussion.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

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