Author Topic: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today  (Read 2047 times)

John_Hannah

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peter_speckhard

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 09:02:50 AM »
An excellent article that mainly fights the battle over language. Readers of Forum Letter know that we're having a discussion on abortion there as well, and one of the objections from the pro-choice side is that the language of pro-lifers-- referring to the fetus as a baby, for example, is emotionally manipulative. But there is no neutral language. For example, the language of "reproduction" instead of "procreation" in a Christian discussion is loaded with an agenda, too.

The key to the discussion both morally and legally, I'm convinced, is the definition of a person. A government of the people, by the people, and for the people needs to know what a person is. 
 

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 09:26:14 AM »
According to a poll recently published by LifeSiteNews this nation is at the tipping point:

48% favor abortion on demand
48% favor restricting abortion to the usual special circumstances
4% undecided.

Fewer polemics will win more of the undecided.
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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 11:17:49 AM »
Perhaps it has been pointed out elsewhere and maybe it is more of a minor point but it is sadly interesting (and I am not against the following concerns) that in an age where the trend is to protect all kinds of sentient, but non-human life, like seals and owls, life that has no perception or feelings like forests, air and water, even rock formations... and a time that values not only the cellular level of life for its chromazones and smaller makeup... not to have more interest in human life at its beginning and earlier phases, embryonically is strange.  Of course, the importance of self over everything else is the deadly competition to say nothing of the completion of self over God and his creation and will.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 04:33:21 PM »
Perhaps it has been pointed out elsewhere and maybe it is more of a minor point but it is sadly interesting (and I am not against the following concerns) that in an age where the trend is to protect all kinds of sentient, but non-human life, like seals and owls, life that has no perception or feelings like forests, air and water, even rock formations... and a time that values not only the cellular level of life for its chromazones and smaller makeup... not to have more interest in human life at its beginning and earlier phases, embryonically is strange.  Of course, the importance of self over everything else is the deadly competition to say nothing of the completion of self over God and his creation and will.


Let's make it a concern for human lives: health care for all; quality education for all (including post-high school schools); a minimum wage that can support a person (e.g., cover housing, food, transportation, clothing, etc.) What are the reasons that a woman would not want to keep the child being developed within her? What can we do to eliminate all of those excuses?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 04:47:37 PM »
Perhaps it has been pointed out elsewhere and maybe it is more of a minor point but it is sadly interesting (and I am not against the following concerns) that in an age where the trend is to protect all kinds of sentient, but non-human life, like seals and owls, life that has no perception or feelings like forests, air and water, even rock formations... and a time that values not only the cellular level of life for its chromazones and smaller makeup... not to have more interest in human life at its beginning and earlier phases, embryonically is strange.  Of course, the importance of self over everything else is the deadly competition to say nothing of the completion of self over God and his creation and will.


Let's make it a concern for human lives: health care for all; quality education for all (including post-high school schools); a minimum wage that can support a person (e.g., cover housing, food, transportation, clothing, etc.) What are the reasons that a woman would not want to keep the child being developed within her? What can we do to eliminate all of those excuses?
Maybe she thinks the baby deserves an involved father. Should we also decree happy marriages for all? And if there is some aspect of the fall that might adversely affect a person, such as a broken home, we can’t defend that person’s right to life until we’ve alleviated it via government program?

Everyone is for health and wealth for all. The question is whose responsibility it is to provide it in any given case. You reflexively think government. Others think of a wider array of responsible agents, especially families.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 07:24:03 PM »
Everyone is for health and wealth for all. The question is whose responsibility it is to provide it in any given case. You reflexively think government. Others think of a wider array of responsible agents, especially families.


Ah, this is the contradiction as I see it. Pro-life people want the government to be responsible for reducing abortions through legislation (and punishments); but they think that other health, wealth, and education issues should be the individual's responsibility.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2019, 08:33:26 PM »
Everyone is for health and wealth for all. The question is whose responsibility it is to provide it in any given case. You reflexively think government. Others think of a wider array of responsible agents, especially families.


Ah, this is the contradiction as I see it. Pro-life people want the government to be responsible for reducing abortions through legislation (and punishments); but they think that other health, wealth, and education issues should be the individual's responsibility.
Of course. Because only a pure statist or pure anarchist thinks either everything or nothing is the state’s responsibility. Others think that some things are properly the domain of the state while other things are not. Defending human rights is something the state is obligated to do. There is no inconsistency or hypocrisy in asserting that while also saying that it is not the job of the state to, say, teach toddlers to walk and talk.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 09:46:48 PM by peter_speckhard »

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2019, 08:51:52 PM »
Perhaps it has been pointed out elsewhere and maybe it is more of a minor point but it is sadly interesting (and I am not against the following concerns) that in an age where the trend is to protect all kinds of sentient, but non-human life, like seals and owls, life that has no perception or feelings like forests, air and water, even rock formations... and a time that values not only the cellular level of life for its chromazones and smaller makeup... not to have more interest in human life at its beginning and earlier phases, embryonically is strange.  Of course, the importance of self over everything else is the deadly competition to say nothing of the completion of self over God and his creation and will.


Let's make it a concern for human lives: health care for all; quality education for all (including post-high school schools); a minimum wage that can support a person (e.g., cover housing, food, transportation, clothing, etc.) What are the reasons that a woman would not want to keep the child being developed within her? What can we do to eliminate all of those excuses?

What programs should we establish to take away the problems of pregnancy being inconvenient or embarrassing, not being "ready" for a child.  That is not to say that some abortions are occasioned because of serious financial hardship, serious health concerns, but not nearly all of them.


Are you saying that before anyone should be concerned about abortion, all the other life quality issues should be solved, only then should anyone be concerned about abortion?  Or if anyone is concerned about any life quality issue should be concerned and work for all the rest, does that mean that those who advocate for universal health care, quality education, etc. also perforce be concerned at minimizing abortions?  I'm sure that those of us concerned about abortion would welcome the involvement of all the Democrats pushing universal health care and free college education for all in supporting preserving the rights of the unborn.
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pearson

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2019, 08:54:49 PM »


Ah, this is the contradiction as I see it. Pro-life people want the government to be responsible for reducing abortions through legislation (and punishments); but they think that other health, wealth, and education issues should be the individual's responsibility.


Of course. Because only a pure statist or pure anarchist thinks either everything or nothing is the state’s responsibility. Others think that some things are properly the domain of the state while other things are not. Defending human rights is something the state is obligated to do. There is no inconsistency or hypocrisy in asserting that while also saying that it is not the job of the state to, say, teach toddlers to walk and talk.


Yes.  Well said.

Here's another contradiction for Pr. Stoffregen, parallel to the one he offered:  Lutherans want the pastor to be responsible for preaching Law-and-Gospel sermons; but they think that other maintenance, housekeeping or clerical issues should be the laity's responsibility.  Clearly contradictory.

Tom Pearson
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 09:46:18 PM by peter_speckhard »

jebutler

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2019, 09:47:48 PM »

Let's make it a concern for human lives: health care for all; quality education for all (including post-high school schools); a minimum wage that can support a person (e.g., cover housing, food, transportation, clothing, etc.) What are the reasons that a woman would not want to keep the child being developed within her? What can we do to eliminate all of those excuses?

I once read an op-ed by a doctor who quit performing abortions. He said that he had heard every reason for why women wanted them. The one that made him finally quit: she was going on a cruise and didn't want to look fat while she was on it.

So, Brian, how do you suggest we go about eliminating that "reason that a woman would not want to keep the child being developed within her"?
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2019, 10:28:50 PM »
We cannot eliminate a reason why any woman would want to terminate a pregnancy.
That is the wrong thing to consider.
We should do all in our power, whether privately (none of that nasty governmental interference), or through law (yes, the rightful power of the civic order) to assure or prevent a lot of things.
We should be more successful in teaching Christians about responsible sexuality. And we should be careful that our concern for our kind of "what is right" does not condemn a whole class of our citizenry to the dangers of unregulated, illicit, unsanitary and often fatal "back alley" abortions.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2019, 10:57:50 PM »
We cannot eliminate a reason why any woman would want to terminate a pregnancy.
That is the wrong thing to consider.
We should do all in our power, whether privately (none of that nasty governmental interference), or through law (yes, the rightful power of the civic order) to assure or prevent a lot of things.
We should be more successful in teaching Christians about responsible sexuality. And we should be careful that our concern for our kind of "what is right" does not condemn a whole class of our citizenry to the dangers of unregulated, illicit, unsanitary and often fatal "back alley" abortions.
Nobody is condemned to get a back alley abortion. You may as well say laws against bank robbery condemn people to dangerous, high speed chases, as though not robbing banks weren’t an option on the table for them.

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2019, 11:00:35 PM »
We should be more successful in teaching Christians about responsible sexuality. And we should be careful that our concern for our kind of "what is right" does not condemn a whole class of our citizenry....

Aye.

Toning down the polemics....as we say in the Pennsylwania Dutch country:

"You catch more flies with honey onest than you do with winegar."
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Re: A Times Pro Life Op Ed Today
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2019, 11:11:38 PM »
We cannot eliminate a reason why any woman would want to terminate a pregnancy.
That is the wrong thing to consider.
We should do all in our power, whether privately (none of that nasty governmental interference), or through law (yes, the rightful power of the civic order) to assure or prevent a lot of things.
We should be more successful in teaching Christians about responsible sexuality. And we should be careful that our concern for our kind of "what is right" does not condemn a whole class of our citizenry to the dangers of unregulated, illicit, unsanitary and often fatal "back alley" abortions.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, is there any evidence that anyone or any organization that shares this opinion actually does anything meaningful to evidence their belief in it? At least in our church body, the suggestion of any program or expenditures whose purpose is abortion reduction or the teaching of Christian sexual ethics would go over about as well as the Spanish flu.

Don't get me wrong - I am glad that our denomination is (or at least tries its best to be) compassionate towards women and is a place where abortion can be discussion reasonably, rather than reflexively. However, I can't see where anything is actually accomplished.

Meanwhile, the voices that insist we celebrate abortions become even louder. On my more bitter days, I think they have already won.