Author Topic: Luther on Prager U  (Read 6699 times)

Mike Bennett

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2018, 05:17:04 PM »
As a generalization, there tends to be "popular" presentation and "academic" presentations. As an illustration, much of the critiques I've read against the MBTI are criticizing the "popular" books and understanding. There are also "academic" books and journals that contain social science experiments at the college level and higher.


That's also true in theology. It's likely that should our lay people be quizzed on the finer (academic) points of theology, they would fail. Popular books like the Left Behind series or The DaVinci Code or The Late Great Planet Earth from a generation ago, are popular and present popular theologies. They use common language rather the technical terms that better When Hal Lindsey writes a commentary on Revelation, I do not expect it to be an academic treatise like the Hermeneia series or The International Critical Commentaries.

I see Dr. Cornils's presentation to be a popular presentation of Luther; not completely technically accurate, but designed for a pretty uninformed audience.

I disagree with the premise that it’s ok for a “popular” presentation to be inaccurate because the hearer/reader is not equipped to handle the full “academic” version. Part of any expert’s tool kit is the ability to explain material in his/her field to a non-expert in such a way that the hearer receives accurate albeit less than exhaustive information. Two examples: (1) My doctor communicating with me regarding my medical condition; (2) My responsibility in my pre-retirement profession to communicate financial matters to those who were not expert in finance.
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2018, 08:46:54 PM »
They report 180 students in all programs. I suspect about a hundred of those are M.Div.

Hard to know, of course, but I "suspect" that's not correct, and I "suspect" that figure includes pretty much anybody who is taking even a single class.
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Richard Johnson

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2018, 08:48:06 PM »
They report 180 students in all programs. I suspect about a hundred of those are M.Div.


I believe that's larger than when I was there ('72-'76). As I recall, there were less than 30 in my graduating class.

Even if there were 100 MDiv students, and assuming three years of study and a year of internship, that would make for a graduating class of 25, wouldn't it?
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2018, 10:37:02 PM »
There are, as I understand it, three levels of carpentry, rough, finish and cabinetry.  Of the three, cabinetr by far demands the greatest degree of care and precision and involves the more intricate work.  Finish carpentry still needs precision if joints and corners are going to be tight and look good.  Rough can be rougher still and since joints and corners will be covered up, they don’t need to fit as tightly.  But even so, rough carpentry can’t be sloppy or the walls will be out of plumb and alignment, floors slope and doors and windows won’t close.  Measuring and assembly still needs care and a degree of accuracy.


Just because a work is being done for popular consumption doesn’t justify outright distortion of the subject matter even if it doesn’t need to meet the rigorous standards demanded of scholarly work.
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2018, 07:04:05 AM »
There are, as I understand it, three levels of carpentry, rough, finish and cabinetry.  Of the three, cabinetr by far deimands the greatest degree of care and precision and involves the more intricate work.  Finish carpentry still needs precision if joints and corners are going to be tight and look good.  Rough can be rougher still and since joints and corners will be covered up, they don’t need to fit as tightly.  But even so, rough carpentry can’t be sloppy or the walls will be out of plumb and alignment, floors slope and doors and windows won’t close.  Measuring and assembly still needs care and a degree of accuracy.


Just because a work is being done for popular consumption doesn’t justify outright distortion of the subject matter even if it doesn’t need to meet the rigorous standards demanded of scholarly work.

This is a good comparison for understanding the problems and the challenges of presenting history in simple ways. Thanks for sharing it.

The video does include errors in fact and misleading statements, which one would want to avoid at any level of work. At the same time, the narrative is well told and illustrated in an engaging way. I hope the author and university have an opportunity to improve it. A good consultant might work wonders.
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2018, 08:30:38 AM »
There are, as I understand it, three levels of carpentry, rough, finish and cabinetry.  Of the three, cabinetr by far deimands the greatest degree of care and precision and involves the more intricate work.  Finish carpentry still needs precision if joints and corners are going to be tight and look good.  Rough can be rougher still and since joints and corners will be covered up, they don’t need to fit as tightly.  But even so, rough carpentry can’t be sloppy or the walls will be out of plumb and alignment, floors slope and doors and windows won’t close.  Measuring and assembly still needs care and a degree of accuracy.


Just because a work is being done for popular consumption doesn’t justify outright distortion of the subject matter even if it doesn’t need to meet the rigorous standards demanded of scholarly work.

This is a good comparison for understanding the problems and the challenges of presenting history in simple ways. Thanks for sharing it.

The video does include errors in fact and misleading statements, which one would want to avoid at any level of work. At the same time, the narrative is well told and illustrated in an engaging way. I hope the author and university have an opportunity to improve it. A good consultant might work wonders.

Rev. Engelbrecht,

I genuinely appreciate your way of finding a positive way of saying things.  Not just on this matter, but throughout this board.  Thank you! I often fail in that, to my chagrin.

Charles Austin

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2018, 10:15:04 AM »
Flaws, whether cataclysmic or small, in internet "things" are inevitable because the medium allows anyone to do anything.
   During my sixty years of writing for magazines, newspapers, and radio stations, nothing  - and I mean nothing - I wrote was published or aired unless at least two and usually more editors up the line saw it, asked questions about it, caught things that could be unclear to the reader, and tidied up my grammar. Sometimes these editors knew more about the subject than I did, and if they did not know the details of what I was writing about - theology, for example - the made me make things clearer to them.
   They could not catch absolutely everything, of course, but that's how it worked.
   With today's internet, anyone can create anything, an article, a video, a whole show and slam it up online without any buffer or checking.
   It is a problem. caveat lector
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

readselerttoo

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2018, 01:47:39 PM »
As a generalization, there tends to be "popular" presentation and "academic" presentations. As an illustration, much of the critiques I've read against the MBTI are criticizing the "popular" books and understanding. There are also "academic" books and journals that contain social science experiments at the college level and higher.


That's also true in theology. It's likely that should our lay people be quizzed on the finer (academic) points of theology, they would fail. Popular books like the Left Behind series or The DaVinci Code or The Late Great Planet Earth from a generation ago, are popular and present popular theologies. They use common language rather the technical terms that better When Hal Lindsey writes a commentary on Revelation, I do not expect it to be an academic treatise like the Hermeneia series or The International Critical Commentaries.

I see Dr. Cornils's presentation to be a popular presentation of Luther; not completely technically accurate, but designed for a pretty uninformed audience.

I disagree with the premise that it’s ok for a “popular” presentation to be inaccurate because the hearer/reader is not equipped to handle the full “academic” version. Part of any expert’s tool kit is the ability to explain material in his/her field to a non-expert in such a way that the hearer receives accurate albeit less than exhaustive information. Two examples: (1) My doctor communicating with me regarding my medical condition; (2) My responsibility in my pre-retirement profession to communicate financial matters to those who were not expert in finance.

I couldn't agree more with this.  Why dispense inaccuracies esp. at the popular level!

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2018, 02:18:36 PM »
I disagree with the premise that it’s ok for a “popular” presentation to be inaccurate because the hearer/reader is not equipped to handle the full “academic” version. Part of any expert’s tool kit is the ability to explain material in his/her field to a non-expert in such a way that the hearer receives accurate albeit less than exhaustive information. Two examples: (1) My doctor communicating with me regarding my medical condition; (2) My responsibility in my pre-retirement profession to communicate financial matters to those who were not expert in finance.

I couldn't agree more with this.  Why dispense inaccuracies esp. at the popular level!
I agree also. In my introductory courses--even on such topics as Judaism or Islam--I tried my best not to teach the students anything they would have to unlearn if they pursued the subject more deeply.

Peace,
Michael
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2018, 06:35:20 PM »
I couldn't agree more with this.  Why dispense inaccuracies esp. at the popular level!


It's popular to talk about the Torah coming from Moses. It's not accurate. Should we refuse to call them "The Books of Moses"?


It's inaccurate to talk about Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as the authors of the gospels. It's quite likely that they were not written by men with those names. They do not tell us who wrote them.


Did Jesus give the Lord's Prayer twice (or more often) which leads to the versions in Matthew and Luke; or did one of the gospel writers record an inaccurate version of Jesus' words?


I found nothing inaccurate in Cornils's presentation. There were generalized statements that would be nuanced further in a detailed study of Luther's legacy in the world.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2018, 07:21:42 PM »
I couldn't agree more with this.  Why dispense inaccuracies esp. at the popular level!


It's popular to talk about the Torah coming from Moses. It's not accurate. Should we refuse to call them "The Books of Moses"?


It's inaccurate to talk about Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as the authors of the gospels. It's quite likely that they were not written by men with those names. They do not tell us who wrote them.


Did Jesus give the Lord's Prayer twice (or more often) which leads to the versions in Matthew and Luke; or did one of the gospel writers record an inaccurate version of Jesus' words?


I found nothing inaccurate in Cornils's presentation. There were generalized statements that would be nuanced further in a detailed study of Luther's legacy in the world.

Not accurate/inaccurate according to whom?  And by not accurate , do you mean not true?


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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2018, 12:54:27 AM »
I couldn't agree more with this.  Why dispense inaccuracies esp. at the popular level!


It's popular to talk about the Torah coming from Moses. It's not accurate. Should we refuse to call them "The Books of Moses"?


It's inaccurate to talk about Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as the authors of the gospels. It's quite likely that they were not written by men with those names. They do not tell us who wrote them.


Did Jesus give the Lord's Prayer twice (or more often) which leads to the versions in Matthew and Luke; or did one of the gospel writers record an inaccurate version of Jesus' words?


I found nothing inaccurate in Cornils's presentation. There were generalized statements that would be nuanced further in a detailed study of Luther's legacy in the world.

Not accurate/inaccurate according to whom?  And by not accurate , do you mean not true?


Not accurate does not necessarily mean not true. If I say, "It's about a foot long" and a tape measure shows that it is actually 13.5 inches long. Was my original statement not true, or just not quite accurate?


In some situations, "about a foot long" is accurate enough, e.g., to find a piece of wood to fill in a gap. When actually filling in the gap, measure twice, cut once, is the motto; so that the measurement will be accurate to that task.


There are memes on Facebook that illustrate accuracy (or truth) depends on one's perspective. One pictures shows two people looking at a number on the ground from opposite sides. One insists that it's a six the other states that it is a nine. Both are true from their perspective.


Another has a 3-D cylinder (picture attached). A light from the top cast a shadow of a circle on the wall. "It's a circle." A light from the side cast a shadow of a square on the wall. "It's a square." Both statements are true, but neither fully captures the whole truth of the cylinder. We might say that both statements are accurate to a point; but they also miss the whole truth.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

gan ainm

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2018, 05:26:39 AM »
I couldn't agree more with this.  Why dispense inaccuracies esp. at the popular level!


It's popular to talk about the Torah coming from Moses. It's not accurate. Should we refuse to call them "The Books of Moses"?


It's inaccurate to talk about Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as the authors of the gospels. It's quite likely that they were not written by men with those names. They do not tell us who wrote them.


Did Jesus give the Lord's Prayer twice (or more often) which leads to the versions in Matthew and Luke; or did one of the gospel writers record an inaccurate version of Jesus' words?


I found nothing inaccurate in Cornils's presentation. There were generalized statements that would be nuanced further in a detailed study of Luther's legacy in the world.

Not accurate/inaccurate according to whom?  And by not accurate , do you mean not true?


Not accurate does not necessarily mean not true. If I say, "It's about a foot long" and a tape measure shows that it is actually 13.5 inches long. Was my original statement not true, or just not quite accurate?


In some situations, "about a foot long" is accurate enough, e.g., to find a piece of wood to fill in a gap. When actually filling in the gap, measure twice, cut once, is the motto; so that the measurement will be accurate to that task.


There are memes on Facebook that illustrate accuracy (or truth) depends on one's perspective. One pictures shows two people looking at a number on the ground from opposite sides. One insists that it's a six the other states that it is a nine. Both are true from their perspective.


Another has a 3-D cylinder (picture attached). A light from the top cast a shadow of a circle on the wall. "It's a circle." A light from the side cast a shadow of a square on the wall. "It's a square." Both statements are true, but neither fully captures the whole truth of the cylinder. We might say that both statements are accurate to a point; but they also miss the whole truth.

Thank you for your description of how you are using 'not accurate'.  Now, again what is your answer to my first question:  Not accurate according to whom (in regards to author of the Torah and authors of the Gospels)?

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2018, 06:04:45 AM »
There are, as I understand it, three levels of carpentry, rough, finish and cabinetry.  Of the three, cabinetr by far deimands the greatest degree of care and precision and involves the more intricate work.  Finish carpentry still needs precision if joints and corners are going to be tight and look good.  Rough can be rougher still and since joints and corners will be covered up, they don’t need to fit as tightly.  But even so, rough carpentry can’t be sloppy or the walls will be out of plumb and alignment, floors slope and doors and windows won’t close.  Measuring and assembly still needs care and a degree of accuracy.


Just because a work is being done for popular consumption doesn’t justify outright distortion of the subject matter even if it doesn’t need to meet the rigorous standards demanded of scholarly work.

This is a good comparison for understanding the problems and the challenges of presenting history in simple ways. Thanks for sharing it.

The video does include errors in fact and misleading statements, which one would want to avoid at any level of work. At the same time, the narrative is well told and illustrated in an engaging way. I hope the author and university have an opportunity to improve it. A good consultant might work wonders.

Rev. Engelbrecht,

I genuinely appreciate your way of finding a positive way of saying things.  Not just on this matter, but throughout this board.  Thank you! I often fail in that, to my chagrin.

Thanks for your kind words, Steven.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2018, 10:17:03 AM »
Thank you for your description of how you are using 'not accurate'.  Now, again what is your answer to my first question:  Not accurate according to whom (in regards to author of the Torah and authors of the Gospels)?


There are many answers to not accurate to whom? One is the text itself. Moses dies before Deuteronomy ends, so he couldn't have written those verses after his death. When you look for the name of the writers of the gospels in the gospels, it is not to be found.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 10:18:48 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]