Author Topic: Luther on Prager U  (Read 6702 times)

DCharlton

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2018, 09:30:17 PM »
Several things about this smell fishy to me. But perhaps I am just being too suspicious and cynical.
Someone call Wartburg seminary, and ask them about this video and his identification with them.  Then call the office of the ELCA secretary and determined his status on our roster. 

As the Presiding Bishop said about another controversial pastor who is publicly identified with the ELCA, since his opinion is outside of the official policies of the Wartburg, there is no reason to get worked up about it.  We should no more care about what he says publicly than we care what Decolonize Lutheranism, Naked and Ashamed or Ebenezer Lutheran says.  Right?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 09:31:49 PM by DCharlton »
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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2018, 12:45:51 AM »
Several things about this smell fishy to me. But perhaps I am just being too suspicious and cynical.
Someone call Wartburg seminary, and ask them about this video and his identification with them.  Then call the office of the ELCA secretary and determined his status on our roster.

And then there's https://www.wartburgseminary.edu/staff/rev-dr-stephen-cornils/
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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2018, 03:59:15 AM »
So if he is a 1970 graduate of Wartburg, he and I were in Dubuque at the same time.
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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2018, 10:10:07 AM »
Despite the rather creepy descent of this thread into all things Cornils  (Perhaps soon we will learn whether or not he frequents Chik-fil-a or however its spelled...), I actually watched the YouTube video.  After all, many of you religiously watch the talking heads on TV and Cable "news" and "opinion" shows, most of whom tout impressive institution linked credentials without the permission of those institutions (and sometimes do not claim to be spokespersons for them).

My reaction to the Cornils' Luther video is that it was a very shallow, weak on facts gloss about Luther and the Reformation.  Close enough to make the uninformed think they've learned something really factual.  Far enough off to assure misunderstanding and negative reaction to the man and his alleged influence on almost everything that occurred after he posted on the door. 

After all, according to Cornils, the printing press invention was a bit different than you learned about it (see  https://www.livescience.com/43639-who-invented-the-printing-press.html to reconnect to reality); Luther was the most stubborn, cranky, non-PC guy who ever lived; Luther (unbeknownst to him) lit the fuse that created capitalism, democracy, free will and a huge host of other cultural and civilizational changing milestones (including the Renaissance and the Enlightenment).  But, enough.

I trust that this does not represent the current educational value to be gained at Wartburg.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 10:50:49 AM by RandyBosch »

Richard Johnson

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2018, 11:32:14 AM »


I trust that this does not represent the current educational value to be gained at Wartburg.

Well, if it's any comfort, there aren't that many students.
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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2018, 11:46:40 AM »
They report 180 students in all programs. I suspect about a hundred of those are M.Div.
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DCharlton

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2018, 11:51:04 AM »
My reaction to the Cornils' Luther video is that it was a very shallow, weak on facts gloss about Luther and the Reformation.  Close enough to make the uninformed think they've learned something really factual.  Far enough off to assure misunderstanding and negative reaction to the man and his alleged influence on almost everything that occurred after he posted on the door. 

That's a good summary of most of what takes place at Prager U.  My son has complained about similar representations of Plato and Aristotle and other supposed fathers of capitalism.
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2018, 12:01:26 PM »
Several things about this smell fishy to me. But perhaps I am just being too suspicious and cynical.
Someone call Wartburg seminary, and ask them about this video and his identification with them.  Then call the office of the ELCA secretary and determined his status on our roster.

And then there's https://www.wartburgseminary.edu/staff/rev-dr-stephen-cornils/
So backtracking from this link, I see that he is chair of the board of directors.  I have no stake in any of this, but I imagine that being chair gives a person some authority...though obviously institutionally dependent.  Not quite sure what the separation of authority is between the board of directors and the foundation trustees, but I'd guess it's daily operations versus endowment funds.

Of course, all this is a quite separate from the content of Dr. Cornils public pronouncements.  Multiple things can be true at the same time, we should not lose sight of that.  But I fear once again we're being pushed into tribal corners.  Someone alluded to it upstream, but I'm not sure what the ELCA representative difference is between Nadia Bolz-Webber, for example, and Dr. Cornils, other than which tribe one perceives them to belong.  The former was a featured speaker at an ELCA youth gathering, the latter is board chair of an ELCA seminary and was elected to that board by the ELCA church council, known hotbed of regressive policies.

Of course, I'm also not quite sure what to make of a seminary the describes itself on its internet homepage as "basically Hogwarts".  But obviously Dr. Cornils is suspect because of his association with Prager U (the veracity of that entity I make no particular comment here), although I will dispute the Southern Poverty Law Center's current moral righteousness as an arbiter of truth.
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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2018, 12:05:44 PM »


I trust that this does not represent the current educational value to be gained at Wartburg.

Well, if it's any comfort, there aren't that many students.

That is some high quality gallows humor. I almost snorted out my coffee.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2018, 12:56:37 PM »
They report 180 students in all programs. I suspect about a hundred of those are M.Div.


I believe that's larger than when I was there ('72-'76). As I recall, there were less than 30 in my graduating class.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2018, 01:08:30 PM »
As a generalization, there tends to be "popular" presentation and "academic" presentations. As an illustration, much of the critiques I've read against the MBTI are criticizing the "popular" books and understanding. There are also "academic" books and journals that contain social science experiments at the college level and higher.


That's also true in theology. It's likely that should our lay people be quizzed on the finer (academic) points of theology, they would fail. Popular books like the Left Behind series or The DaVinci Code or The Late Great Planet Earth from a generation ago, are popular and present popular theologies. They use common language rather the technical terms that better When Hal Lindsey writes a commentary on Revelation, I do not expect it to be an academic treatise like the Hermeneia series or The International Critical Commentaries.

I see Dr. Cornils's presentation to be a popular presentation of Luther; not completely technically accurate, but designed for a pretty uninformed audience.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2018, 01:24:49 PM »
As a generalization, there tends to be "popular" presentation and "academic" presentations. As an illustration, much of the critiques I've read against the MBTI are criticizing the "popular" books and understanding. There are also "academic" books and journals that contain social science experiments at the college level and higher.


That's also true in theology. It's likely that should our lay people be quizzed on the finer (academic) points of theology, they would fail. Popular books like the Left Behind series or The DaVinci Code or The Late Great Planet Earth from a generation ago, are popular and present popular theologies. They use common language rather the technical terms that better When Hal Lindsey writes a commentary on Revelation, I do not expect it to be an academic treatise like the Hermeneia series or The International Critical Commentaries.

I see Dr. Cornils's presentation to be a popular presentation of Luther; not completely technically accurate, but designed for a pretty uninformed audience.
Agree, it appears to be "dumbed down" for a wider audience.  That's always problematic to those who know more about a subject, and leaves knowledgeable people wondering whether, in this case Dr. Cornils, knows better.  Maybe he knows his stuff, but his popular translation is just not that good.  Judging by others' comments here, it seems he missed the mark on the heart of Luther and the Reformation.  Admittedly it's not an easy task.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2018, 02:08:26 PM »
As a generalization, there tends to be "popular" presentation and "academic" presentations. As an illustration, much of the critiques I've read against the MBTI are criticizing the "popular" books and understanding. There are also "academic" books and journals that contain social science experiments at the college level and higher.


That's also true in theology. It's likely that should our lay people be quizzed on the finer (academic) points of theology, they would fail. Popular books like the Left Behind series or The DaVinci Code or The Late Great Planet Earth from a generation ago,are popular and present popular theologies. They use common language rather the technical terms that better When Hal Lindsey writes a commentary on Revelation, I do not expect it to be an academic treatise like the Hermeneia series or The International Critical Commentaries.

I see Dr. Cornils's presentation to be a popular presentation of Luther; not completely technically accurate, but designed for a pretty uninformed audience.
Any text, whether article, book, blog, video, etc., can be produced for technically savvy experts or at a "popular" level for general consumption.  Those produced for general consumption will avoid technical language, simplify complex issues and discussions, ignore some of the more intricate issues and arguments and generally "dumb it down" for non specialists.  It's not so much about the intelligence of the presumed audience but their background in the subject matter (or lack of it).  One can be quite learned in one area but a novice in another.  Learned theologians who attempt to pontificate about scientific matters generally make as many gaffs as do accomplished scientists when they pontificate about theology.

But none of this excuses a text whether academic, technical or popular for promulgating inaccuracies, fabrications, or falsehoods about the subject matter.  I'm sure that evolutionary scientists do not excuse religious proponents of creationism who produce popular level discussions of evolution that misconstrue evolutionary theory or evidence as being acceptable because what they're producing are "popular" rather than "academic" works.  Or suppose a popular book about the Civil War were written that portrayed the antebellum condition of slaves as happy, well cared for and content and the cause of the war was Northern attempts to suppress Southern civilization.  Such a work would not be accepted simply because it is "popular" rather than academic.  Neither should a popular presentation of Martin Luther be accepted that misrepresents him.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 02:21:03 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2018, 03:46:57 PM »
Perhaps off topic, perhaps not. I saw, liked, and reposted this picture on Facebook.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 04:31:27 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2018, 04:39:08 PM »
Regarding the use of a model rather than a worker.


A novice might see nothing wrong with the picture.


Someone with a little knowledge would know that you don't hold a soldering iron where she's holding it.


Someone with more knowledge knows about the soldering iron and also the fact that soldering doesn't happen on that side of the board.


Experts with more knowledge than I have may find even more fault with her approach to soldering on the mother board.


I've yet to discover what the "Dr." in Stephen Cornils name refers to. Ph.D.? Th.D.? D.Ed.? D.Min.? And what specific area did he get his doctorate? I expect someone with a Ph.D. in Lutheran Confessional theology to know more about that topic than someone with an M.D. degree. Conversely, I would go to one of these doctors for a pain in my side, but not to the other.



"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]