Author Topic: Luther on Prager U  (Read 6742 times)

pearson

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2018, 10:45:50 AM »

There are memes on Facebook that illustrate accuracy (or truth) depends on one's perspective. One pictures shows two people looking at a number on the ground from opposite sides. One insists that it's a six the other states that it is a nine. Both are true from their perspective.

Another has a 3-D cylinder (picture attached). A light from the top cast a shadow of a circle on the wall. "It's a circle." A light from the side cast a shadow of a square on the wall. "It's a square." Both statements are true, but neither fully captures the whole truth of the cylinder. We might say that both statements are accurate to a point; but they also miss the whole truth.


Ah, if only all of reality were just memes on Facebook.

Tom Pearson

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2018, 12:30:31 PM »
Thank you for your description of how you are using 'not accurate'.  Now, again what is your answer to my first question:  Not accurate according to whom (in regards to author of the Torah and authors of the Gospels)?


There are many answers to not accurate to whom? One is the text itself. Moses dies before Deuteronomy ends, so he couldn't have written those verses after his death. When you look for the name of the writers of the gospels in the gospels, it is not to be found.

Why would it be necessary for an author by the name of Matthew be named in the Gospel of Matthew itself for it to be authentically the Gospel of St. Matthew?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2018, 11:57:02 PM »

There are memes on Facebook that illustrate accuracy (or truth) depends on one's perspective. One pictures shows two people looking at a number on the ground from opposite sides. One insists that it's a six the other states that it is a nine. Both are true from their perspective.

Another has a 3-D cylinder (picture attached). A light from the top cast a shadow of a circle on the wall. "It's a circle." A light from the side cast a shadow of a square on the wall. "It's a square." Both statements are true, but neither fully captures the whole truth of the cylinder. We might say that both statements are accurate to a point; but they also miss the whole truth.


Ah, if only all of reality were just memes on Facebook.


It is a good source of people's "perceptions" - what they believe to be the reality and the beliefs that govern their lives. You may or may not agree with their perceptions; which you can then share as a meme on Facebook.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 12:20:00 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2018, 12:18:04 AM »
Thank you for your description of how you are using 'not accurate'.  Now, again what is your answer to my first question:  Not accurate according to whom (in regards to author of the Torah and authors of the Gospels)?


There are many answers to not accurate to whom? One is the text itself. Moses dies before Deuteronomy ends, so he couldn't have written those verses after his death. When you look for the name of the writers of the gospels in the gospels, it is not to be found.

Why would it be necessary for an author by the name of Matthew be named in the Gospel of Matthew itself for it to be authentically the Gospel of St. Matthew?


Because the best place to look for the author of a document is within the document itself. That is the primary source of information about the document. Most of the biblical letters tell us who wrote them. My sermon manuscripts have my name printed on them. Any book you buy or borrow lists the author(s).


We already know that secondary sources, Papias, as recorded by Eusebius, and Irenaeus were inaccurate in believing that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew. There is a "Gospel of the Hebrews" that was used by the Ebionites, but it is not the canonical gospel of Matthew. If those early church histories were wrong about Matthew being in Hebrew, they could easily be wrong about the name of the author.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2018, 10:59:50 AM »
Thank you for your description of how you are using 'not accurate'.  Now, again what is your answer to my first question:  Not accurate according to whom (in regards to author of the Torah and authors of the Gospels)?


There are many answers to not accurate to whom? One is the text itself. Moses dies before Deuteronomy ends, so he couldn't have written those verses after his death. When you look for the name of the writers of the gospels in the gospels, it is not to be found.

May I ask yet again, not accurate according to whom?  Which specific "accurate source" is it you believe as to who the authors of Scripture (the Torah and Gospels in particular) are and why do you believe that/those source(s) vs. the people for millennia who 1. accept the Torah was written by Moses and the Gospels were written by the traditional authors for whom the books are named, and 2. believe the mysteries of God like a little child?  For example:

Matthew 11:24-26 (ESV)
24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.  25 At that time Jesus declared, I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.


I hope this Matthew passage is not in your "not accurate" bucket.  Regardless, I hope you have a blessed New Year.  God's Peace be with you.



Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2018, 11:53:13 AM »
Thank you for your description of how you are using 'not accurate'.  Now, again what is your answer to my first question:  Not accurate according to whom (in regards to author of the Torah and authors of the Gospels)?


There are many answers to not accurate to whom? One is the text itself. Moses dies before Deuteronomy ends, so he couldn't have written those verses after his death. When you look for the name of the writers of the gospels in the gospels, it is not to be found.

May I ask yet again, not accurate according to whom?  Which specific "accurate source" is it you believe as to who the authors of Scripture (the Torah and Gospels in particular) are and why do you believe that/those source(s) vs. the people for millennia who 1. accept the Torah was written by Moses and the Gospels were written by the traditional authors for whom the books are named, and 2. believe the mysteries of God like a little child?  For example:

Matthew 11:24-26 (ESV)
24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.  25 At that time Jesus declared, I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.


I hope this Matthew passage is not in your "not accurate" bucket.  Regardless, I hope you have a blessed New Year.  God's Peace be with you.


I have told you the authoritative source: The Bible. Every time I have laid out the differences between the creation accounts in Genesis 1:1-2:4a and in 2:4b-25 with adults or confirmation students; they conclude that there must be two different stories. Old Testament scholars who have more time to study other stories continue that conclusion throughout the Torah - there are different sources.


As any teacher (and perhaps even pastors) who read stories by youth, different styles are readily apparent. (That's one way teachers catch students who have plagiarized off the internet - the writing style changes.) The Bible gives us different writing styles in the Torah.


Language scholars that I read place the beginning of distinct Hebrew letters around the 10th century BC. This places it 250-300 years after the Exodus and Moses' death. How could Moses have written it if the Hebrews didn't have writing at that time?


As I see it, the legend of Moses' authorship is a like referring to a dictionary as "Websters". None of the recent ones were edited by Noah Webster.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2018, 12:26:23 PM »
How stupid believers must have been for thousands of years not to have caught what is so obvious to modern scholars.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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aletheist

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #82 on: December 31, 2018, 12:39:01 PM »
Because the best place to look for the author of a document is within the document itself. That is the primary source of information about the document. Most of the biblical letters tell us who wrote them.
Including the Pastoral Epistles.  Do you affirm accordingly that Paul actually wrote them?

As I see it, the legend of Moses' authorship is a like referring to a dictionary as "Websters".
And yet, Jesus spoke about the Pentateuch on multiple occasions as if Moses actually wrote it.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2018, 01:01:07 PM »
How stupid believers must have been for thousands of years not to have caught what is so obvious to modern scholars.


And for hundreds of years "scholars" took everything in scriptures as allegories. That was wrong, too.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #84 on: December 31, 2018, 02:20:42 PM »
Because the best place to look for the author of a document is within the document itself. That is the primary source of information about the document. Most of the biblical letters tell us who wrote them.
Including the Pastoral Epistles.  Do you affirm accordingly that Paul actually wrote them?


No, I don't affirm that Paul wrote them. He was dead by the time deacons, elders, and bishops became church offices.


Do you agree that
The Gospel of Philip,
The Gospel or Traditions of Matthias,
The Gospel of Peter,
The Gospel of Thomas,
The Preaching of Peter,
The Gospel of Bartholomew,
The Book of James or Protevangelium,
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas
were not written by Philip, Matthias, Peter, Bartholomew, James, and Thomas?

What do you say about
The Apocalypse of Peter,
The Apocalypse of Paul,
The Apocalypse of Thomas,
The Apocalypse of the Virgin,
The Revelation of Stephen?
Where they written by Peter, Paul, Thomas, Mary, and Stephen?
 
We have a copy of 3 Corinthians that claims to be written by Paul. It's found in the Acts of Paul. Should we except Pauline authorship just because it says it was written by Paul?

As I see it, the legend of Moses' authorship is a like referring to a dictionary as "Websters".
And yet, Jesus spoke about the Pentateuch on multiple occasions as if Moses actually wrote it.

And we talk about Webster's as if Noah Webster actually wrote the dictionary, too.

The NT attributes psalms to David. Yet, it's not likely that he wrote the psalms. The introduction to the psalms in the CEB Study Bible says: "It is unlikely that David wrote any of these psalms, so the phrase 'of David' could also be translated 'dedicated to David' or 'for David' or 'in honor of David.' The phrase seems to be a way of honoring David's memory and influence. The poets who likely wrote the psalms were members of levitical guilds, such as those of Korah (ss Pss 42-43; 1 chron 9:19; 2 Chron 20:19) and Asaph (see Ps 50; 1 Chron 16:5, 7; 25:1-2; Era 3:10)." (p. 838 OT)

Over the years, "Song of Solomon" (KJV through RSV) became "Song of Songs," because scholars came to realize that it was not written by Solomon.

The belief that a book was written by Moses, Paul, David, or Solomon doesn't make it so.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

aletheist

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2018, 02:25:26 PM »
The belief that a book was written by Moses, Paul, David, or Solomon doesn't make it so.
And the belief that a book was not written by Moses, Paul, David, or Solomon does not make it so, either.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

jebutler

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2018, 03:09:38 PM »
Because the best place to look for the author of a document is within the document itself. That is the primary source of information about the document. Most of the biblical letters tell us who wrote them.
Including the Pastoral Epistles.  Do you affirm accordingly that Paul actually wrote them?


No, I don't affirm that Paul wrote them. He was dead by the time deacons, elders, and bishops became church offices.


Do you agree that
The Gospel of Philip,
The Gospel or Traditions of Matthias,
The Gospel of Peter,
The Gospel of Thomas,
The Preaching of Peter,
The Gospel of Bartholomew,
The Book of James or Protevangelium,
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas
were not written by Philip, Matthias, Peter, Bartholomew, James, and Thomas?

What do you say about
The Apocalypse of Peter,
The Apocalypse of Paul,
The Apocalypse of Thomas,
The Apocalypse of the Virgin,
The Revelation of Stephen?
Where they written by Peter, Paul, Thomas, Mary, and Stephen?
 
We have a copy of 3 Corinthians that claims to be written by Paul. It's found in the Acts of Paul. Should we except Pauline authorship just because it says it was written by Paul?

As I see it, the legend of Moses' authorship is a like referring to a dictionary as "Websters".
And yet, Jesus spoke about the Pentateuch on multiple occasions as if Moses actually wrote it.

And we talk about Webster's as if Noah Webster actually wrote the dictionary, too.

The NT attributes psalms to David. Yet, it's not likely that he wrote the psalms. The introduction to the psalms in the CEB Study Bible says: "It is unlikely that David wrote any of these psalms, so the phrase 'of David' could also be translated 'dedicated to David' or 'for David' or 'in honor of David.' The phrase seems to be a way of honoring David's memory and influence. The poets who likely wrote the psalms were members of levitical guilds, such as those of Korah (ss Pss 42-43; 1 chron 9:19; 2 Chron 20:19) and Asaph (see Ps 50; 1 Chron 16:5, 7; 25:1-2; Era 3:10)." (p. 838 OT)

Over the years, "Song of Solomon" (KJV through RSV) became "Song of Songs," because scholars came to realize that it was not written by Solomon.

The belief that a book was written by Moses, Paul, David, or Solomon doesn't make it so.

So here we have it. The fact that the four Gospel writers don't name their authors is proof that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not write them since that is the best place to look for the author.

But the Pastorals identify Paul as the author. But he can't be the author, because...church offices. And David didn't write the Psalms attributed to him. And Solomon didn't write the Song attributed to him.

So, its a "heads I win; tails you lose" thing here.

Oh Brian, those other books you identify. None of them were ever accepted by the Church as Scripture. Don't know if you knew that or not. Otherwise, why point to them?
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

pearson

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2018, 04:21:52 PM »

And yet, Jesus spoke about the Pentateuch on multiple occasions as if Moses actually wrote it.




The belief that a book was written by Moses, Paul, David, or Solomon doesn't make it so.


Did Jesus have "beliefs"?  Including false "beliefs" about the authorship of the Torah?

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2018, 04:47:37 PM »
The belief that a book was written by Moses, Paul, David, or Solomon doesn't make it so.
And the belief that a book was not written by Moses, Paul, David, or Solomon does not make it so, either.


Certainly, so we look, first of all to the texts for evidence of their author(s). What does the text claim about it's author? Is the language and grammar proper for a writing at that time in history? Does the historical setting within the writing match the historical setting of the (supposed) author or does it better fit another time in history? Is their theological consistency with other writings by the author? And so on. The "critical" method, as I was told in seminary, is "asking questions" of the text - then seeking answers. The answers to such questions has led many to conclude that Moses did not write the Torah. David did not write the Psalms. Solomon did not write the Songs, Paul did not write the pastorals.


For example, the style of writing and the theological proclamation in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Samuels, & Kings is consistent, e.g., a centralized place to worship YHWH. Conclusion 1: they came from the same source; but since Moses has died at the end of Deuteronomy, he couldn't have written the follow-up volumes. Conclusion 2: Moses couldn't have written Deuteronomy. Conclusion 3: This collection of Israelite history was written or compiled after the final event at the end of Kings, namely, the exile.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2018, 04:51:30 PM »
Did Jesus have "beliefs"?  Including false "beliefs" about the authorship of the Torah?


Yup. He was a product of the culture and beliefs he was living in. I doubt that he wore Levi jeans and Nike shoes or even knew about them. We just read how 12-year-old Jesus increased in wisdom (Luke 2:52). He wasn't born knowing everything. He was taught by his parents and teachers in the temple.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]