Author Topic: Luther on Prager U  (Read 6579 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2019, 01:37:46 AM »
I didn't say that using the concept of enumeration, but of "sin" - confess your sin.  I guess by including the "s" you took it to be a descriptor of enumeration.  More telling, what was missing was the concept of sin itself.  So I guess a question is how to get to Jesus as the Savior of the world without sin as a prerequisite.  There's always death. Really.  Always.


I remember a discussion at seminary: if a tribe was discovered that didn't have a concept of sin, would we have to teach them that before we could share the gospel with them?


For some people, death is not a curse, but a relief from the burdens of life or from chronic pain
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2019, 05:33:38 AM »
I didn't say that using the concept of enumeration, but of "sin" - confess your sin.  I guess by including the "s" you took it to be a descriptor of enumeration.  More telling, what was missing was the concept of sin itself.  So I guess a question is how to get to Jesus as the Savior of the world without sin as a prerequisite.  There's always death. Really.  Always.


I remember a discussion at seminary: if a tribe was discovered that didn't have a concept of sin, would we have to teach them that before we could share the gospel with them?


For some people, death is not a curse, but a relief from the burdens of life or from chronic pain

...a relief in despair but not a relief in hope.

DCharlton

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2019, 11:16:10 AM »

We need to be consistent in our historical relativism.  If Jesus was limited by his historical context, so are we.  We only know these things from the point of view of the early 21st Century C.E.  Our own historical limitations prevent us from knowing what future generations will know. 

From this perspective, our historical limitations also prevent us from knowing what past generations knew.  Or as the old saying goes, "We've forgotten more about Christ than you'll ever know."

;)

Exactly.  Historical relativism works both ways.  We are as limited by our own historical and cultural context as every other generation, past and future.  When Pastor Stoffregen argues that Jesus was a man of the 1st Century C.E., and therefore limited in what he knew, my response is that Pastor Stoffregen is equally limited by his 21st Century context.  Why should I give any weight to what a man limited by his 21st Century context says?
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2019, 01:30:35 PM »
I didn't say that using the concept of enumeration, but of "sin" - confess your sin.  I guess by including the "s" you took it to be a descriptor of enumeration.  More telling, what was missing was the concept of sin itself.  So I guess a question is how to get to Jesus as the Savior of the world without sin as a prerequisite.  There's always death. Really.  Always.


I remember a discussion at seminary: if a tribe was discovered that didn't have a concept of sin, would we have to teach them that before we could share the gospel with them?


For some people, death is not a curse, but a relief from the burdens of life or from chronic pain

...a relief in despair but not a relief in hope.


For the woman in the middle years of my ministry who had been bed-ridden for years with chronic arthritis, and for the man early in my ministry with very painful bone cancer, death was a relief from pain. The curse in the garden was that the man would have to work hard. Returning to dust meant "rest from the labors" (Rev 14:13). These folks did not see death as a relief from despair; but a relief from pain, a relief from toil.

"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Luther on Prager U
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2019, 01:34:32 PM »

We need to be consistent in our historical relativism.  If Jesus was limited by his historical context, so are we.  We only know these things from the point of view of the early 21st Century C.E.  Our own historical limitations prevent us from knowing what future generations will know. 

From this perspective, our historical limitations also prevent us from knowing what past generations knew.  Or as the old saying goes, "We've forgotten more about Christ than you'll ever know."

 ;)

Exactly.  Historical relativism works both ways.  We are as limited by our own historical and cultural context as every other generation, past and future.  When Pastor Stoffregen argues that Jesus was a man of the 1st Century C.E., and therefore limited in what he knew, my response is that Pastor Stoffregen is equally limited by his 21st Century context.  Why should I give any weight to what a man limited by his 21st Century context says?


I give what you say the weight I believe it deserves as it speaks to my 21st century context. What some people say causes me to go, "WOW!" and incorporate their words into my context. What some people say causes me to go, "Where in the world did they come up with that idea?" because it doesn't connect with my context. This is also true when I read about folks in the 1st century or d6th century BC. Some of it relates to me and my context; and some of it doesn't.


Even with folks living in the same house on the same day, their reactions to what our president says (or what a preacher says) can cause quite different responses. There is much more to context than the year on the calendar.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 01:36:23 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]