Author Topic: Benne on Bolz-Weber  (Read 15213 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #255 on: December 16, 2018, 11:08:48 PM »
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.

That is... How do you put it... codswallop.

You simply don't know what you're talking about, Charles. You even confuse a marriage license with a certificate of marriage.
Don Kirchner

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Dan Fienen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #256 on: December 16, 2018, 11:13:25 PM »
Marriage laws and requirements vary from state to state and change over time.  A pastor friend of mine served a parish outside of Chicago.  At that time couples were required to be married in the county where they obtained the license. He had couples who would get their license during lunch at the Cook County courthouse in Chicago.  He then would need to have the couple stop on the way to the reception in the parking lot of a shopping center across the county line into Cook Co. to make it legal.


Itís always good when coming to a new place to check on the local laws.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #257 on: December 16, 2018, 11:51:58 PM »
Pastor Kirchner, I am very close to leaving this board. And you are one of the reasons.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolinaís Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #258 on: December 17, 2018, 08:28:01 AM »
That word, "generally," which precedes the list is an important word, Pastor Kirchner. I have been in the New York City Clerk's office and had discussion with people there on this subject. And I have has some minimal contact with those in the "officiant" biz, that is, people who will provide weddings, child things, funerals, and other ceremonies made-to-order for the client.
Anyone can walk into the clerk's office and fill out the form. If you are clergy in a "regular" denomination, you list that. If you are not, you don't have to list anything. I have seen it done and talked to people who have done it. So don't think your quick reading of some laws or regs give you the whole deal.
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.
But we quibble trivialities here, in Pastor Kirchner's (did I get that right) frenzy to prove me wrong.
He'll take the last word, as usual.

NYC is the only area of NY that one needs credentials and the credentials are easy to obtain.  Simply go into Google and type, "on-line ordination" and fill out the form.  With more and more wedding venues popping up that offer one-stop-shopping; that is, rooms for the wedding party to ready themselves, photography, ceremony, and reception a few steps a way less and less people are marrying in a church.  Some pastors/priests will go to the site, others will not.  Often it becomes a best friend or close relative.   

D. Engebretson

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #259 on: December 17, 2018, 08:56:21 AM »
That word, "generally," which precedes the list is an important word, Pastor Kirchner. I have been in the New York City Clerk's office and had discussion with people there on this subject. And I have has some minimal contact with those in the "officiant" biz, that is, people who will provide weddings, child things, funerals, and other ceremonies made-to-order for the client.
Anyone can walk into the clerk's office and fill out the form. If you are clergy in a "regular" denomination, you list that. If you are not, you don't have to list anything. I have seen it done and talked to people who have done it. So don't think your quick reading of some laws or regs give you the whole deal.
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.
But we quibble trivialities here, in Pastor Kirchner's (did I get that right) frenzy to prove me wrong.
He'll take the last word, as usual.

NYC is the only area of NY that one needs credentials and the credentials are easy to obtain.  Simply go into Google and type, "on-line ordination" and fill out the form.  With more and more wedding venues popping up that offer one-stop-shopping; that is, rooms for the wedding party to ready themselves, photography, ceremony, and reception a few steps a way less and less people are marrying in a church.  Some pastors/priests will go to the site, others will not.  Often it becomes a best friend or close relative.   

In the state of Wisconsin where I reside you are required to be an ordained pastor of a church.  That said, in the 18 years I have been here, no one has checked or asked for evidence or proof of that credential.  I simply sign the form with my title and all is well.  I am seeing people I know obtain their "credentials" online.  I think they like the idea of having a "pastor" officiate without the religious trappings, given that many of their clients are probably unchurched.  I also find it interesting that we are threatened with fines or brief jail time for being late filing the marriage license, but nothing is said of falsifying ones credentials.  For my chaplaincy position with the city's fire department I was required to provide a copy of my ordination certificate.  Likewise with the local police and sherrif's department where I also applied.  The government's interests vary on this. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dave Benke

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #260 on: December 17, 2018, 09:15:48 AM »
That word, "generally," which precedes the list is an important word, Pastor Kirchner. I have been in the New York City Clerk's office and had discussion with people there on this subject. And I have has some minimal contact with those in the "officiant" biz, that is, people who will provide weddings, child things, funerals, and other ceremonies made-to-order for the client.
Anyone can walk into the clerk's office and fill out the form. If you are clergy in a "regular" denomination, you list that. If you are not, you don't have to list anything. I have seen it done and talked to people who have done it. So don't think your quick reading of some laws or regs give you the whole deal.
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.
But we quibble trivialities here, in Pastor Kirchner's (did I get that right) frenzy to prove me wrong.
He'll take the last word, as usual.

NYC is the only area of NY that one needs credentials and the credentials are easy to obtain.  Simply go into Google and type, "on-line ordination" and fill out the form.  With more and more wedding venues popping up that offer one-stop-shopping; that is, rooms for the wedding party to ready themselves, photography, ceremony, and reception a few steps a way less and less people are marrying in a church.  Some pastors/priests will go to the site, others will not.  Often it becomes a best friend or close relative.   

In the state of Wisconsin where I reside you are required to be an ordained pastor of a church.  That said, in the 18 years I have been here, no one has checked or asked for evidence or proof of that credential.  I simply sign the form with my title and all is well.  I am seeing people I know obtain their "credentials" online.  I think they like the idea of having a "pastor" officiate without the religious trappings, given that many of their clients are probably unchurched.  I also find it interesting that we are threatened with fines or brief jail time for being late filing the marriage license, but nothing is said of falsifying ones credentials.  For my chaplaincy position with the city's fire department I was required to provide a copy of my ordination certificate.  Likewise with the local police and sherrif's department where I also applied.  The government's interests vary on this.

I have not been following this latest discussion except here at the end; Charles and Eileen correctly identify the New York City process with regard to filing with the City Clerk to perform a wedding.  When the newly ordained and installed come to the city, we (the Atlantic District office) advise them to complete the form online or at the clerk's office right away.

Chaplaincies at the state level here may have changed over the last ten years, but when I was in district office, there were denominational roster requirements for paid chaplains, and we had a few men attempt to go through our colloquy process who had been self-ordained and denied the paid chaplain position.  None of them made it through the entrance gate for colloquy on our end. 

Dave Benke

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #261 on: December 17, 2018, 09:51:44 AM »
That word, "generally," which precedes the list is an important word, Pastor Kirchner. I have been in the New York City Clerk's office and had discussion with people there on this subject. And I have has some minimal contact with those in the "officiant" biz, that is, people who will provide weddings, child things, funerals, and other ceremonies made-to-order for the client.
Anyone can walk into the clerk's office and fill out the form. If you are clergy in a "regular" denomination, you list that. If you are not, you don't have to list anything. I have seen it done and talked to people who have done it. So don't think your quick reading of some laws or regs give you the whole deal.
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.
But we quibble trivialities here, in Pastor Kirchner's (did I get that right) frenzy to prove me wrong.
He'll take the last word, as usual.

NYC is the only area of NY that one needs credentials and the credentials are easy to obtain.  Simply go into Google and type, "on-line ordination" and fill out the form.  With more and more wedding venues popping up that offer one-stop-shopping; that is, rooms for the wedding party to ready themselves, photography, ceremony, and reception a few steps a way less and less people are marrying in a church.  Some pastors/priests will go to the site, others will not.  Often it becomes a best friend or close relative.   

In the state of Wisconsin where I reside you are required to be an ordained pastor of a church.  That said, in the 18 years I have been here, no one has checked or asked for evidence or proof of that credential.  I simply sign the form with my title and all is well.  I am seeing people I know obtain their "credentials" online.  I think they like the idea of having a "pastor" officiate without the religious trappings, given that many of their clients are probably unchurched.  I also find it interesting that we are threatened with fines or brief jail time for being late filing the marriage license, but nothing is said of falsifying ones credentials.  For my chaplaincy position with the city's fire department I was required to provide a copy of my ordination certificate.  Likewise with the local police and sherrif's department where I also applied.  The government's interests vary on this.

I have not been following this latest discussion except here at the end; Charles and Eileen correctly identify the New York City process with regard to filing with the City Clerk to perform a wedding.  When the newly ordained and installed come to the city, we (the Atlantic District office) advise them to complete the form online or at the clerk's office right away.

Chaplaincies at the state level here may have changed over the last ten years, but when I was in district office, there were denominational roster requirements for paid chaplains, and we had a few men attempt to go through our colloquy process who had been self-ordained and denied the paid chaplain position.  None of them made it through the entrance gate for colloquy on our end. 

Dave Benke

For the last 4 or 5 years now the synod has had an endorsement process for emergency service chaplains.  When I started nearly 16 years ago there was nothing like this in place.  I am now going to 'work back' and complete the paperwork, although it seems I already have over 3/4 of the requirements met.  I think it is a good thing and raises the legitimacy of our work in the government realm.  When I founded the volunteer program in my area, I insisted that they write to my DP to receive an endorsement.  I thought it was good practice and set a standard for future chaplains.  When you are the first you need to set the bar a bit higher.  My fellow firefighters (I am also a trained firefighter) have educational and training requirements set by the state.  I think chaplains would seek to have some kind of standard to demonstrate their own professionalism and competence. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Pr. Terry Culler

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #262 on: December 17, 2018, 09:55:40 AM »
In Maryland a person is considered a pastor if he or she is deemed by those being married to be a pastor. 

Is that the view of a particular religious order or body?


Not sure, but certainly it is possible for a congregation (of 2 maybe) can raise up for themselves a pastor.  The point is that the state has no place in determining who is or is not a true pastor
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Gary Hatcher

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #263 on: December 17, 2018, 10:06:22 AM »
That word, "generally," which precedes the list is an important word, Pastor Kirchner. I have been in the New York City Clerk's office and had discussion with people there on this subject. And I have has some minimal contact with those in the "officiant" biz, that is, people who will provide weddings, child things, funerals, and other ceremonies made-to-order for the client.
Anyone can walk into the clerk's office and fill out the form. If you are clergy in a "regular" denomination, you list that. If you are not, you don't have to list anything. I have seen it done and talked to people who have done it. So don't think your quick reading of some laws or regs give you the whole deal.
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.
But we quibble trivialities here, in Pastor Kirchner's (did I get that right) frenzy to prove me wrong.
He'll take the last word, as usual.
Charles, two things, you have some fairly strong opinions on the use of names in this forum. Yet, you seem careless about the correct spelling of folks' names or even attributing the right person to the right post. It makes your protests about others use of pen names less credible. In the above quote, why did you feel it necessary to fire the parting shot at Pr. Kirchner? It come across as peevish.
Gary Hatcher STS,
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #264 on: December 17, 2018, 10:25:17 AM »
Pastor Kirchner, I am very close to leaving this board. And you are one of the reasons.

This would be a far, far less contentious forum and we would more likely be able to address matters on the subject line.  I would miss you, nonetheless.

Pax, Steven+
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ptom

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #265 on: December 17, 2018, 10:30:32 AM »
Actually, in the state of Wisconsin since 2013, you do not have to be ordained to sign the license as the officiant.  State statute 765.16 states that an officiant can be
1. an ordained member of the clergy of a denomination or religious society who continues to be an ordained member of the clergy

2.  a licentiate of a denominational body or an appointee of any bishop serving as the regular member of the clergy of any church of the denomination to which the member of the clergy belongs, if not restrained from doing so by the discipline of the church or denomination

3.the 2 parties themselves, by mutual declaration that they take each other as husband and wife, in accordance with the customs, rules and regulations of any religious society, denomination or sect, to which either of the parties may belong.

4. any judge of a court of record or reserve judge appointed under 753.075

5.any court commissioner or supplemental commissioner

6. any municipal  court judge


You do not have to be registered in the county where the ceremony takes place.
Life is much more manageable when thought of as a scavenger hunt as opposed to a surprise party.

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #266 on: December 17, 2018, 10:37:11 AM »
Actually, in the state of Wisconsin since 2013, you do not have to be ordained to sign the license as the officiant.  State statute 765.16 states that an officiant can be
1. an ordained member of the clergy of a denomination or religious society who continues to be an ordained member of the clergy

2.  a licentiate of a denominational body or an appointee of any bishop serving as the regular member of the clergy of any church of the denomination to which the member of the clergy belongs, if not restrained from doing so by the discipline of the church or denomination

3.the 2 parties themselves, by mutual declaration that they take each other as husband and wife, in accordance with the customs, rules and regulations of any religious society, denomination or sect, to which either of the parties may belong.

4. any judge of a court of record or reserve judge appointed under 753.075

5.any court commissioner or supplemental commissioner

6. any municipal  court judge


You do not have to be registered in the county where the ceremony takes place.

Thank you.  I was not current on this law in my own state.  The state, it seems, does still insist on some form of official acknowledgement and credentialing.  That said, I have yet to have local officials check on this.  They all simply seem to assume all is in order according to the law you just quoted.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #267 on: December 17, 2018, 10:45:32 AM »
While this is true ( the state wanting it) they are not going to require it.  As long as the couple acknowledge that the person has the authority to do the service.
There are many on-line ordained who are doing the services.  Sometime the couple (who are clueless as to proper procedure) in looking for a venue are told by the place that they have a person (who has been ordained on-line) who can do the wedding, so they don't need to involve a clergy person ( and of course the cost for such is included in their package of services)


Tom Myhre
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Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #268 on: December 17, 2018, 11:14:35 AM »
Pastor Hatcher, I am peevish at times. I am aging, not always in A+ or A-1+ physical shape; and struggling to adjust to radically new living situations without that which has provided me comfort, colleagues and meaning for the past 38 years.
That, of course, is no excuse for rudeness; but, as is well-known here, I do not care for the "quote" function and its long, descending nests of purplish boxes; so I do not use it.
I mean no disrespect with the occasional (or even frequent) typographic error; and I do admit that Pastor Fienen and Pastor Kirchner "sound" alike to me and I must be more careful to distinguish.
A "pen name" is different from anonymity, because everyone knows the "real" person. My complaint about anonymity here focuses on the one who is frequently judgmental, personal, and uses posts to specifically denounce individuals. That is offensive to me and ought to be offensive to everyone. (But some here apparently claim to know who is posting anonymously.)
I am almost certain I know who the anonymous one is, and I believe that, if unrestrained, the postings from this person could radically damage this modest forum. I almost feel sorry for what I perceive to be this person's "militarism" with regard to faith and certain elements of life.
Nonetheless, cheers to all (or almost all)  ;) ;D
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolinaís Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #269 on: December 17, 2018, 12:04:11 PM »
In several places that Iíve served I canít recall ever having my credentials to perform marriages questioned.  But applying to visit prisoners in the county lockup has involved providing copies of ordination and even copy of the call document to the local congregation.  Iím not what if anything that says about the importance attached to regulating who performs weddings.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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