Author Topic: Benne on Bolz-Weber  (Read 15165 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #240 on: December 15, 2018, 10:46:30 PM »
When a relatively small-time Lutheran pastor reaches the "status" of a U.S. President or Attorney General, we can think about that particular initial-defined honorific.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #241 on: December 15, 2018, 11:45:18 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

I'm not convinced it matters where on campus this was held.  It should not have taken place at all.

You're opposed to having a lip sync battle anywhere on campus?  When I was in seminary between 1988 and 1992. Each class held a "class party" in the cafeteria/community center.  That makes one in the fall, winter and spring.  The parties included a series of skits and other comedic elements, including parodies of popular music. A lip sync battle would have fit right in.  No one ever dressed in drag, but when I was in college, I remember three male professors dressing in hula skirts for comedic effect.  (We would not have been allowed to hold a class party in the Gloria Dei Chapel.  Nor would it have been acceptable to wear costumes in the chapel.  One Halloween, some students wore their costumes in chapel and were reprimanded.)

Should the event have been held in the chapel?  No.  Should it have included a drag act?  Probably not, especially if it had a sexual content.  Was it wrong to hold a lip sync contest on campus?  I don't think so.


I agree about the chapel.
My question: Why was it held in the chapel?
Possible answer (that was shot down): That was the only space large enough.
What are other possible answers?
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Eileen Smith

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #242 on: December 16, 2018, 07:38:11 AM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

I'm not convinced it matters where on campus this was held.  It should not have taken place at all.

You're opposed to having a lip sync battle anywhere on campus?  When I was in seminary between 1988 and 1992. Each class held a "class party" in the cafeteria/community center.  That makes one in the fall, winter and spring.  The parties included a series of skits and other comedic elements, including parodies of popular music. A lip sync battle would have fit right in.  No one ever dressed in drag, but when I was in college, I remember three male professors dressing in hula skirts for comedic effect.  (We would not have been allowed to hold a class party in the Gloria Dei Chapel.  Nor would it have been acceptable to wear costumes in the chapel.  One Halloween, some students wore their costumes in chapel and were reprimanded.)

Should the event have been held in the chapel?  No.  Should it have included a drag act?  Probably not, especially if it had a sexual content.  Was it wrong to hold a lip sync contest on campus?  I don't think so.

Of course not.  We had an older gentleman in our congregation who would put on a yearly show and for those who performed and those who simply watched it was a lot of fun.

I think the content of the song was inappropriate and I will admit that reading the one or two Facebook posts from the future pastor were also inappropriate.  I will admit that I let the posts guide my thoughts as to his performance.  An infraction of the Eighth?  Perhaps.  Yet don't we take the entirety of what we know about a situation to judge the situation. 

In a call committee went through a candidates social media postings and found this, would you consider him for leading a congregation?   I hope call committees are savvy enough to do this and I'm sure many are.  It's done in business every day and decisions often are weighted to what appears on-line. 

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #243 on: December 16, 2018, 08:01:00 AM »
A couple of questions from this young man's Facebook posts:

1) In one post, he mentions that he was finishing up his internship year and, on his last Sunday there, was going to write his own communion liturgy and preside at the Supper.  Is this common/normal in ELCA churches?

2) In another post, he writes of officiating at a wedding (with photos) but I was under the impression he was not yet ordained.  Is that correct?

Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #244 on: December 16, 2018, 10:39:24 AM »
Pastor Bohler writes:
1) In one post, he mentions that he was finishing up his internship year and, on his last Sunday there, was going to write his own communion liturgy and preside at the Supper.  Is this common/normal in ELCA churches?
I comment:
No, it is not; and this seminarian is out of line. However, I have heard of un-ordained seminarians being authorized by the bishop to preside. I am among those who find this unfortunate and probably in violation of our normal policies. But it happens.

Pastor Bohler writes:
2) In another post, he writes of officiating at a wedding (with photos) but I was under the impression he was not yet ordained.  Is that correct?
I comment:
In many places, one does not have to be ordained to legally preside at a wedding.
In cases like these, my elderly mind flashes back to the early- and mid-1960s when there was a flurry of liturgical "experimentation," involving hand-crafted liturgies, prayers and rites so tied to the themes of the day that they may have lost their connection to the classic rites and concerns of the Church. These things flared up, caused a stir and generally faded away. Some of the "new" music lasted, but not very much of it. We had talk in my seminary days - 1963-1967 - about who should preside and under what circumstances. Perhaps we were more "obedient," because I do not think any of us transgressed the rules or policies.
So, Pastor Bohler, do not (no matter how much you might like to do so) characterize the ELCA by the actions of a particular seminarian. We know very little about this seminarian, what status might be held with a candidacy committee or what synodical or seminary guidance might be given.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 10:41:06 AM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #245 on: December 16, 2018, 11:42:48 AM »
Pastor Bohler writes:
1) In one post, he mentions that he was finishing up his internship year and, on his last Sunday there, was going to write his own communion liturgy and preside at the Supper.  Is this common/normal in ELCA churches?
I comment:
No, it is not; and this seminarian is out of line. However, I have heard of un-ordained seminarians being authorized by the bishop to preside. I am among those who find this unfortunate and probably in violation of our normal policies. But it happens.

Pastor Bohler writes:
2) In another post, he writes of officiating at a wedding (with photos) but I was under the impression he was not yet ordained.  Is that correct?
I comment:
In many places, one does not have to be ordained to legally preside at a wedding.
In cases like these, my elderly mind flashes back to the early- and mid-1960s when there was a flurry of liturgical "experimentation," involving hand-crafted liturgies, prayers and rites so tied to the themes of the day that they may have lost their connection to the classic rites and concerns of the Church. These things flared up, caused a stir and generally faded away. Some of the "new" music lasted, but not very much of it. We had talk in my seminary days - 1963-1967 - about who should preside and under what circumstances. Perhaps we were more "obedient," because I do not think any of us transgressed the rules or policies.
So, Pastor Bohler, do not (no matter how much you might like to do so) characterize the ELCA by the actions of a particular seminarian. We know very little about this seminarian, what status might be held with a candidacy committee or what synodical or seminary guidance might be given.

Thank you, Rev. Austin.  That helps me to understand the, shall we say, unusual aspect of this.  Things unusual happen in the LCMS too!

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #246 on: December 16, 2018, 12:45:58 PM »
In Maryland a person is considered a pastor if he or she is deemed by those being married to be a pastor.  It is actually a much better system than in states where the state gets to determine who is or is not clergy for marriage purposes.
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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #247 on: December 16, 2018, 01:02:56 PM »
In Maryland a person is considered a pastor if he or she is deemed by those being married to be a pastor.  It is actually a much better system than in states where the state gets to determine who is or is not clergy for marriage purposes.

So, what if one of the couple later changes their mind and deems him NOT to be a pastor?  Is the marriage invalid? :)

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #248 on: December 16, 2018, 01:17:06 PM »
In Maryland a person is considered a pastor if he or she is deemed by those being married to be a pastor. 

Is that the view of a particular religious order or body?
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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #249 on: December 16, 2018, 04:33:34 PM »
The legality of the marriage has to do with the filing of the papers with the city or county clerk, it has nothing to do with who presides at the ceremony.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #250 on: December 16, 2018, 07:54:25 PM »
The legality of the marriage has to do with the filing of the papers with the city or county clerk, it has nothing to do with who presides at the ceremony.

Well, you think about that for a bit. I hope you will realize that who presides and the filing of the Certificate of Marriage are not mutually exclusive but, rather, importantly connected.

Think about it rather than react.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 08:08:03 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #251 on: December 16, 2018, 08:44:19 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

I'm not convinced it matters where on campus this was held.  It should not have taken place at all.

You're opposed to having a lip sync battle anywhere on campus?  When I was in seminary between 1988 and 1992. Each class held a "class party" in the cafeteria/community center.  That makes one in the fall, winter and spring.  The parties included a series of skits and other comedic elements, including parodies of popular music. A lip sync battle would have fit right in.  No one ever dressed in drag, but when I was in college, I remember three male professors dressing in hula skirts for comedic effect.  (We would not have been allowed to hold a class party in the Gloria Dei Chapel.  Nor would it have been acceptable to wear costumes in the chapel.  One Halloween, some students wore their costumes in chapel and were reprimanded.)

Should the event have been held in the chapel?  No.  Should it have included a drag act?  Probably not, especially if it had a sexual content.  Was it wrong to hold a lip sync contest on campus?  I don't think so.

Of course not.  We had an older gentleman in our congregation who would put on a yearly show and for those who performed and those who simply watched it was a lot of fun.

I think the content of the song was inappropriate and I will admit that reading the one or two Facebook posts from the future pastor were also inappropriate.  I will admit that I let the posts guide my thoughts as to his performance.  An infraction of the Eighth?  Perhaps.  Yet don't we take the entirety of what we know about a situation to judge the situation. 

In a call committee went through a candidates social media postings and found this, would you consider him for leading a congregation?   I hope call committees are savvy enough to do this and I'm sure many are.  It's done in business every day and decisions often are weighted to what appears on-line.

Okay.  I see that we had different questions in mind.  I was referring to the event itself, while you were referring to the a particular performance. 

I agree with you on the inappropriateness of the performance,  I also think the seminary can be faulted for holding the event in the chapel.  What I don't know is whether the seminary was aware in advance of the nature of the performance and/or whether it approved of the performance. 

My initial concern was that the way it was presented on Dan Skogen's website may have given the wrong impression.  It is not clear that the seminary approved of the content of the performance or was promoting a drag show.  A student did an inappropriate performance. The seminary made the mistake of holding a social event in the chapel.  But was the seminary promoting the inappropriate performance?  That is still not clear.  I would be glad to find out that the seminary was caught off guard.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 08:46:57 PM by DCharlton »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #252 on: December 16, 2018, 09:27:29 PM »
I am not always wrong, Pastor Kirchner.
In New York City, All you have to do to “qualify” to preside at a marriage is to register at the city clerks office. That’s all.
In many states all a couple has to do To “marry” is to file papers in the clerks office. The state has no involvement in determining who is “religiously” qualified to preside at a wedding.
There are freelance wedding officiants all over the country who Will happily preside at whatever kind of service you want to have.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 10:36:58 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #253 on: December 16, 2018, 09:39:27 PM »
I am not always wrong, Pastor Fienen.
In New York City, All you have to do to “qualify” to preside at a marriage is to register at the city clerks office. That’s all.
In many states all a couple has to do To “marry” is to file papers in the clerks office. The state has no involvement in determining who is “religiously” qualified to preside at a wedding.
There are freelance wedding officiants all over the country who Will happily preside at whatever kind of service you want to have.

Charles,

You can't even get the name right. Pastor Fienen hasn't posted anything on alpb since Friday afternoon and nothing on this thread since Wed morning.   ::)

Then you go on to prove that it does make a difference as to who presides for the legality of a marriage, e.g., that in NYC one must first be registered with the city clerk, and only certain persons are eligible to register.

"New York State Law requires any person who performs a Marriage Ceremony within the City of New York to register with the City Clerk. Registration is done in our Manhattan office located at 141 Worth Street, New York, NY 10013.

If you are planning to wed anywhere within the five boroughs of New York City, you should ask the person who is performing your Marriage Ceremony if they have registered.

The registration requirement does not apply to Marriage Ceremonies performed anywhere else in the State of New York...

Who is Eligible to Register

Section 11 of the Domestic Relations Law of the State of New York shows the list of people who are eligible to perform Marriage Ceremonies within the State of New York.
Read this section of the law
Generally, the following people may register:
Clergy members or ministers of any religion;
Leaders of the Society of Ethical Culture;
The Mayor or any former Mayor of the City of New York;
Federal, state, or local judges or justices, elected or appointed in the State of New York, who are currently serving or retired;
The Clerk of the Appellate Division of the First or Second Department; and
The County Clerk of any of the five counties in the City of New York. "

https://www.cityclerk.nyc.gov/html/marriage/officiant_reg.shtml


in your present home state:

 "Minn. Stat. § 517.04 - PERSONS AUTHORIZED TO PERFORM CIVIL MARRIAGES

Civil marriages may be solemnized throughout the state by an individual who has attained the age of 21 years and is a judge of a court of record, a retired judge of a court of record, a court administrator, a retired court administrator with the approval of the chief judge of the judicial district, a former court commissioner who is employed by the court system or is acting pursuant to an order of the chief judge of the commissioner's judicial district, the residential school superintendent of the Minnesota State Academy for the Deaf and the Minnesota State Academy for the Blind, a licensed or ordained minister of any religious denomination, or by any mode recognized in section Minn. Stats. § 517.18. For purposes of this section, a court of record includes the Office of Administrative Hearings under Minn. Stat. § 14.48

Minn. Stat. § 517.05 CREDENTIALS OF MINISTER

Ministers of any religious denomination, before they are authorized to solemnize a civil marriage, shall file a copy of their credentials of license or ordination or, if their religious denomination does not issue credentials, authority from the minister's spiritual assembly, with the local registrar of a county in this state, who shall record the same and give a certificate of filing thereof. The place where the credentials are recorded shall be endorsed upon and recorded with each certificate of civil marriage granted by a minister. "

In Maryland:

 "§2–406.

    (a)    (1)    In this subsection, “judge” means:

            (i)    a judge of the District Court, a circuit court, the Court of Special Appeals, or the Court of Appeals;

            (ii)    a judge approved under Article IV, § 3A of the Maryland Constitution and § 1–302 of the Courts Article for recall and assignment to the District Court, a circuit court, the Court of Special Appeals, or the Court of Appeals;

            (iii)    a judge of a United States District Court, a United States Court of Appeals, or the United States Tax Court; or

            (iv)    a judge of a state court if the judge is active or retired but eligible for recall.

        (2)    A marriage ceremony may be performed in this State by:

            (i)    any official of a religious order or body authorized by the rules and customs of that order or body to perform a marriage ceremony;

            (ii)    any clerk;

            (iii)    any deputy clerk designated by the county administrative judge of the circuit court for the county; or

            (iv)    a judge.

    (b)    Within 6 months after a license becomes effective, any authorized official may perform the marriage ceremony of the individuals named in the license.

    (c)    (1)    An individual may not perform a marriage ceremony unless the individual is authorized to perform a marriage ceremony under subsection (a) of this section. "

As you can see, the legality of the marriage has a lot to do with who presides at the ceremony. So yes, you are wrong.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 10:05:03 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #254 on: December 16, 2018, 10:47:21 PM »
That word, "generally," which precedes the list is an important word, Pastor Kirchner. I have been in the New York City Clerk's office and had discussion with people there on this subject. And I have has some minimal contact with those in the "officiant" biz, that is, people who will provide weddings, child things, funerals, and other ceremonies made-to-order for the client.
Anyone can walk into the clerk's office and fill out the form. If you are clergy in a "regular" denomination, you list that. If you are not, you don't have to list anything. I have seen it done and talked to people who have done it. So don't think your quick reading of some laws or regs give you the whole deal.
The state has no valid interest in the religious credentials of anyone who presides, and indeed couples can marry if no one presides. They just get a license and fill it out, have it witnessed and that's it.
But we quibble trivialities here, in Pastor Kirchner's (did I get that right) frenzy to prove me wrong.
He'll take the last word, as usual.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.