Author Topic: Benne on Bolz-Weber  (Read 13726 times)

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #225 on: December 15, 2018, 09:22:46 AM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

It does not state that it was a chapel service, daily or otherwise. That said, this particular incident is not less than it appears to be.

Let's say that I jumped to conclusions when I read the headline.   I thought it was part of a chapel service until I read more closely.  I agree that the use of the Chapel for such a routine is improper and offensive. 

On the other hand, I think the fact that it was part of a lip sync competition provides the seminary with cover.  They'll say that men dressing up as women and lip syncing for the sake of comedy is as old as Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby in White Christmas.

And that brings it back to the chapel, a place dedicated to the Lord. Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby were in a night club.

Cover? If you think that desecration of the Luther Chapel is cover...

I don't know about Luther Seminary...

Exactly.
Pr. Don Kirchner

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Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #226 on: December 15, 2018, 09:28:26 AM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

It does not state that it was a chapel service, daily or otherwise. That said, this particular incident is not less than it appears to be.

Let's say that I jumped to conclusions when I read the headline.   I thought it was part of a chapel service until I read more closely.  I agree that the use of the Chapel for such a routine is improper and offensive. 

On the other hand, I think the fact that it was part of a lip sync competition provides the seminary with cover.  They'll say that men dressing up as women and lip syncing for the sake of comedy is as old as Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby in White Christmas.

And that brings it back to the chapel, a place dedicated to the Lord. Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby were in a night club.

Cover? If you think that desecration of the Luther Chapel is cover...

I made it clear that I agree with you about the desecration of the chapel.  And I don't say that I think anything is cover for the activity.  I say what I think will be used as cover by people other than me.  You can probably guess who those people will be.

Indeed.
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but its not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #227 on: December 15, 2018, 10:22:40 AM »
Since a chapel is not sacred anyway, it cannot be desecrated.

What an observation about the Chapel of the Incarnation on the Luther Seminary campus, especially by a Lutheran minister. Our spiritual ancestors who gave of their toil and treasure to build and dedicate such sacred space for worship as well as those who presently do so would be truly saddened by such an anti-Christian comment.
Pr. Don Kirchner

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #228 on: December 15, 2018, 04:27:17 PM »
Since a chapel is not sacred anyway, it cannot be desecrated.

What an observation about the Chapel of the Incarnation on the Luther Seminary campus, especially by a Lutheran minister. Our spiritual ancestors who gave of their toil and treasure to build and dedicate such sacred space for worship as well as those who presently do so would be truly saddened by such an anti-Christian comment.

According to their website, this chapel space is part of "Olson Campus Center". It says of this building.

This main building on campus contains the Chapel of the Incarnation, Center for Lifelong Learning, Cafeteria and main Dining Room. The Campus Center is also the location for the campus Information Desk and main switchboard.

Lower Level - Lecture hall and seminar meeting rooms.

Ground Floor - Chapel of the Incarnation, Center for Lifelong Learning, cafeteria and main dining room, Information Desk.
Upper Level - Charles and Sharon Olson Commons and Cafe, faculty lounge, Olson Dining Room, Offices for the Seminary Pastor   


Is this whole building "sacred" or only the one room?


What I'm still looking for and haven't found is whether or not they have another place where a large program could take place. At Wartburg we had an annual "crude arts festival," but we had a venue other than the chapel for this talent (or untalent) show).
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #229 on: December 15, 2018, 04:41:37 PM »
Since a chapel is not sacred anyway, it cannot be desecrated.

What an observation about the Chapel of the Incarnation on the Luther Seminary campus, especially by a Lutheran minister. Our spiritual ancestors who gave of their toil and treasure to build and dedicate such sacred space for worship as well as those who presently do so would be truly saddened by such an anti-Christian comment.

According to their website, this chapel space is part of "Olson Campus Center". It says of this building.

This main building on campus contains the Chapel of the Incarnation, Center for Lifelong Learning, Cafeteria and main Dining Room. The Campus Center is also the location for the campus Information Desk and main switchboard.

Lower Level - Lecture hall and seminar meeting rooms.

Ground Floor - Chapel of the Incarnation, Center for Lifelong Learning, cafeteria and main dining room, Information Desk.
Upper Level - Charles and Sharon Olson Commons and Cafe, faculty lounge, Olson Dining Room, Offices for the Seminary Pastor   


Is this whole building "sacred" or only the one room?

What I'm still looking for and haven't found is whether or not they have another place where a large program could take place.

The Chapel of the Incarnation is sacred space.

Try, e.g., the NW Auditorium, the dining rooms, etc. There's no need to desecrate sacred space.

What you are still looking for and haven't found is a cover for what took place.
Pr. Don Kirchner

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Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #230 on: December 15, 2018, 05:52:11 PM »
 Im not looking for a cover for what took place. Only God is sacred.  Not buildings.  We may have emotional ties to them, even spiritual ties, but they are not Holy.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #231 on: December 15, 2018, 06:08:04 PM »
Im not looking for a cover for what took place. Only God is sacred.  Not buildings.  We may have emotional ties to them, even spiritual ties, but they are not Holy.

1. That's why Jesus didn't care about what happened in the Temple, when He saw the money-changers and animal sellers.
2. That's why Moses was told to keep his sandals on his feet, for he stood on not-holy ground.
3. That's why none of our agenda have an order for the dedication of a new church building, or for the disposition of one that is closing.

Wait.  None of that is true.  Huh.

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #232 on: December 15, 2018, 06:18:39 PM »
Im not looking for a cover for what took place. Only God is sacred.  Not buildings.  We may have emotional ties to them, even spiritual ties, but they are not Holy.

1. That's why Jesus didn't care about what happened in the Temple, when He saw the money-changers and animal sellers.
2. That's why Moses was told to keep his sandals on his feet, for he stood on not-holy ground.
3. That's why none of our agenda have an order for the dedication of a new church building, or for the disposition of one that is closing.

Wait.  None of that is true.  Huh.

Reminds me of Dr Masaki telling of the early Christian martyrs in Japan who refused to stomp on and desecrate a crucifix  and chose to die rather than do so. A crucifix is not God. The fools!

Oh wait, a crucifix can even be a means of grace. Those martyrs suffered a blessed end.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:16:54 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Pr. Don Kirchner

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Eileen Smith

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #233 on: December 15, 2018, 06:28:12 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

I'm not convinced it matters where on campus this was held.  It should not have taken place at all.

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #234 on: December 15, 2018, 06:34:52 PM »
Im not looking for a cover for what took place. Only God is sacred.  Not buildings.  We may have emotional ties to them, even spiritual ties, but they are not Holy.

I would say its sacred space in the sense that we dedicate our buildings, paraments, candles - all that we use in worship to God's glory.  It's not simply a building, it is a building dedicated to preaching God's word and sharing in his sacrament.   If one doesn't see this as sacred space at least they might respect the space for what happens there. 

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #235 on: December 15, 2018, 06:54:15 PM »
I have always understood "sacred space" or "holy space" as that set aside for holy things (Word and Sacrament).  God is "holy" in that He is sinless and perfect.  Holy is understood in different ways.
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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #236 on: December 15, 2018, 07:10:25 PM »
Im not looking for a cover for what took place. Only God is sacred.  Not buildings.  We may have emotional ties to them, even spiritual ties, but they are not Holy.

So God didn't create that space is what you are inferring.

Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #237 on: December 15, 2018, 08:51:14 PM »
Ok. You win. I was wrong. Its sacred space. I agree.
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DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #238 on: December 15, 2018, 09:40:33 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

I'm not convinced it matters where on campus this was held.  It should not have taken place at all.

You're opposed to having a lip sync battle anywhere on campus?  When I was in seminary between 1988 and 1992. Each class held a "class party" in the cafeteria/community center.  That makes one in the fall, winter and spring.  The parties included a series of skits and other comedic elements, including parodies of popular music. A lip sync battle would have fit right in.  No one ever dressed in drag, but when I was in college, I remember three male professors dressing in hula skirts for comedic effect.  (We would not have been allowed to hold a class party in the Gloria Dei Chapel.  Nor would it have been acceptable to wear costumes in the chapel.  One Halloween, some students wore their costumes in chapel and were reprimanded.)

Should the event have been held in the chapel?  No.  Should it have included a drag act?  Probably not, especially if it had a sexual content.  Was it wrong to hold a lip sync contest on campus?  I don't think so. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 09:47:26 PM by DCharlton »
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Mike Bennett

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #239 on: December 15, 2018, 10:25:39 PM »
Pastor Bolz-Weber (who, BTW, I believe, has a name that deserves respect and should not be minimized to a set of letters).

FDR, JFK, LBJ, and RFK are others who have been similarly disrespected.
What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?  2 Kings 9:22