Author Topic: Benne on Bolz-Weber  (Read 15022 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #210 on: December 14, 2018, 02:06:33 AM »
Both the ELCA and LCMS look to scriptures and our confessions to guide our decisions; yet, because we have different ways of interpreting them, we, over the centuries [sic, years], have come to different conclusions about what they say and mean.

So in 1993 the ELCA Conference of Bishops offered their pastoral guidance by expressing their opposition to blessing homosexual relationships, finding nothing in scripture or the confessions to warrant such a blessing. So now we are all in for same sex marriages and if we follow Pr. Bolz-Weber we are approaching the idea of just ditching the whole idea of marriage altogether. In her words, "Burn it down and start all over". I wonder what interpretive tools or exegetical resources we employed to make such a shift in "interpretation".


My interpretation of the 1993 decision is different than yours. They were opposed to the ELCA creating an official blessing of homosexual relationships. They left it up to local pastors in offering care to homosexual partners to create their own blessing of the relationship.


Earlier in this century in a LutherLink meeting Brian offered this "interpretation" of the Bishops' statement.  Among the participants who responded that Brian's "interpretation" was utter nonsense was Bishop Ken Sauer, who in 1993 was the Chair of the Conference of Bishops.  One can read similarly in the article "1993 bishops statement: 'No ambiguity,' no blessings, says then-chairperson Sauer" in the May-June 2005 issue of the WordAlone Network News.


He's entitled to his opinion. I have mine, based on conversations with other bishops (who wouldn't be writing articles for WordAlone). In addition, I don't know of any pastors being disciplined for blessing a same-sex relationships. Such blessings happened. If the interpretation is as Bishop Sauer said, why weren't such pastors removed from the clergy roster? Maybe you know some who were. I don't.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #211 on: December 14, 2018, 02:28:52 AM »
1. I did not say "same-sex marriage".  I said homosexual relations.  And if you do not know of any prohibitions in Scripture (Old AND New Testaments) against such, then you are one sorry excuse for a so-called Biblical scholar.


Rape is a sexual relationship, too; and it is quite different than a marriage relationship. One we have laws against. The other we promote. Leviticus forbids a man from marrying his brother's wife; while Deuteronomy commands him to marry her if the brother has died without children. There are conditions under which the prohibitions in Leviticus can be broken.

Quote
2) As to abortion: "Thou shalt not kill".  There are others, but that one suffices.


If that's how you read the command (rather than thou shalt not murder,) how do you explain all the killing that takes place in the Bible? God kills all the humans except eight. David kills Goliath and thousands and thousands of others. Joshua kills all the people in Jericho and Ai. The list of people killed, often at God's command or God's help goes on and on.


The one command that talks about causing a death in the womb, it is not treated as murder.


If you are going to follow OT Laws, since homosexual relationships involves capital punishment, the rule in Deuteronomy 17:6-7 applies: at least two people have to witness the offense - at least two people would have to witness the man lying with one as with a woman. Then those witness have to participate in the execution.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #212 on: December 14, 2018, 02:42:30 AM »
The language of the statement was left ambiguous...

Ambiguous or duplicitous?

Are you asking this of the Conference of Bishops or Pastor Stoffregen?

More so Pr Stoffregen. Though I remember at the time of the statement thinking that the pastoral care part of the statement could be used in ways not intended by the Conference. If Pr Stoffregen is right about this actually having been the intent of some bishops, then certainly that was duplicitous.

This reminds me of the experience I had many years ago in the Episcopal Church. Some priests would use the House Blessing service in the Occasional Services book to essentially bless the relationships of a gay or lesbian couple. I attended several of these. Of course everybody there knew exactly what was going on.

In the same way Pr Stoffregen and others took the pastoral care provision and used it in ways contrary to the meaning of the statement.

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #213 on: December 14, 2018, 03:05:28 AM »
If the interpretation is as Bishop Sauer said, why weren't such pastors removed from the clergy roster? Maybe you know some who were. I don't.

To anybody who actually lived through this era in the ELCA this is a silly question. The absence of discipline and accountability that marked this era is truly astounding. We are a million members away from that time though. Water under the bridge.

DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #214 on: December 14, 2018, 08:52:45 AM »
We have to remember that this was in the 1990s, of which "that depends on what the definition of 'is' is" was the apotheosis.  The real question is whether that the notion of multiple but equally valid interpretations was an honest attempt at a solution, or just a will to power. 

I admit to enjoying the irony when a bishop acts shocked that pastors and congregations think they can interpret the constitutions and policies of the ELCA any way they choose. 
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #215 on: December 14, 2018, 11:35:53 AM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 12:16:47 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #216 on: December 14, 2018, 12:37:26 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #217 on: December 14, 2018, 12:44:58 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

It does not state that it was a chapel service, daily or otherwise. That said, this particular incident is not less than it appears to be.
Don Kirchner

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #218 on: December 14, 2018, 02:06:41 PM »
In the same way Pr Stoffregen and others took the pastoral care provision and used it in ways contrary to the meaning an interpretation of the statement.


Those who blessed homosexual unions did it under the revised statement above. The Conference of Bishops could have stated clearly, "The blessing of same-sex unions is prohibited." They did not say that. Their statement allowed for them under a reasonable interpretation of the words that they used.


I have not had the opportunity to bless (or marry) a same-sex couple. I do have friends who are married homosexuals. I support their committed relationships.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #219 on: December 14, 2018, 02:11:30 PM »
If the interpretation is as Bishop Sauer said, why weren't such pastors removed from the clergy roster? Maybe you know some who were. I don't.

To anybody who actually lived through this era in the ELCA this is a silly question. The absence of discipline and accountability that marked this era is truly astounding. We are a million members away from that time though. Water under the bridge.


Huh? At one point 5 out of 25 clergy in the Denver area were removed for misconduct. Some of these were long-time friends of the Bishop who had served in the area before his election as bishop. A few years ago, I received notice of a retired pastor who was removed because of an affair he had in his earlier years. Another pastor in our synod was immediately removed from his call when it was discovered he was addicted to pornography. Maybe nothing happened in your neck of the ELCA, but I've seen many clergy removed for misconduct.


An almost specialized ministry has been created for "after pastors". These are the interims who go into a congregation after a pastor has been removed for misconduct.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #220 on: December 14, 2018, 06:43:42 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

It does not state that it was a chapel service, daily or otherwise. That said, this particular incident is not less than it appears to be.

Let's say that I jumped to conclusions when I read the headline.   I thought it was part of a chapel service until I read more closely.  I agree that the use of the Chapel for such a routine is improper and offensive. 

On the other hand, I think the fact that it was part of a lip sync competition provides the seminary with cover.  They'll say that men dressing up as women and lip syncing for the sake of comedy is as old as Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby in White Christmas. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 07:06:51 PM by DCharlton »
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #221 on: December 14, 2018, 08:28:28 PM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

It does not state that it was a chapel service, daily or otherwise. That said, this particular incident is not less than it appears to be.

Let's say that I jumped to conclusions when I read the headline.   I thought it was part of a chapel service until I read more closely.  I agree that the use of the Chapel for such a routine is improper and offensive. 

On the other hand, I think the fact that it was part of a lip sync competition provides the seminary with cover.  They'll say that men dressing up as women and lip syncing for the sake of comedy is as old as Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby in White Christmas.

And that brings it back to the chapel, a place dedicated to the Lord. Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby were in a night club.

Cover? If you think that desecration of the Luther Chapel is cover...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 08:35:02 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #222 on: December 15, 2018, 12:08:52 AM »
Since a chapel is not “sacred” anyway, it cannot be desecrated.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #223 on: December 15, 2018, 12:18:35 AM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

It does not state that it was a chapel service, daily or otherwise. That said, this particular incident is not less than it appears to be.

Let's say that I jumped to conclusions when I read the headline.   I thought it was part of a chapel service until I read more closely.  I agree that the use of the Chapel for such a routine is improper and offensive. 

On the other hand, I think the fact that it was part of a lip sync competition provides the seminary with cover.  They'll say that men dressing up as women and lip syncing for the sake of comedy is as old as Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby in White Christmas.

And that brings it back to the chapel, a place dedicated to the Lord. Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby were in a night club.

Cover? If you think that desecration of the Luther Chapel is cover...

I made it clear that I agree with you about the desecration of the chapel.  And I don't say that I think anything is cover for the activity.  I say what I think will be used as cover by people other than me.  You can probably guess who those people will be.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #224 on: December 15, 2018, 12:50:09 AM »
There's no stopping this runaway train...   :(

https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/drag-performance-in-luther-seminarys-chapel

The thing is that many of the members are unaware of the extent of this stuff. My wife's cousin and close childhood friend, married to a Seminex guy/retired ELCA pastor, posted on her FB timeline an announcement about Nadia's scheduled program at Gloria Dei Lutheran in St. Paul. I simply commented with the link to Benne's article. Within 10 minutes Leona had taken down the announcement. I'm sure she didn't realize the extent of the vulgar, sexual content.

Do you know whether this was a chapel service?  There is some note about a lip sync battle, suggesting it is a social event.  Why that event would be held in the chapel is another question.  I raise this not to minimize the problem in the ELCA, but because this particular incident might be less than it appears to be.

Sadly, NBW's golden vagina sculpture is not part of a comedy routine.

It does not state that it was a chapel service, daily or otherwise. That said, this particular incident is not less than it appears to be.

Let's say that I jumped to conclusions when I read the headline.   I thought it was part of a chapel service until I read more closely.  I agree that the use of the Chapel for such a routine is improper and offensive. 

On the other hand, I think the fact that it was part of a lip sync competition provides the seminary with cover.  They'll say that men dressing up as women and lip syncing for the sake of comedy is as old as Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby in White Christmas.

And that brings it back to the chapel, a place dedicated to the Lord. Danny Kaye and Bing Crosby were in a night club.

Cover? If you think that desecration of the Luther Chapel is cover...


I don't know about Luther Seminary, but at two congregations I served, we only had one large space. It was used for worship. It was used for potluck meals, it was used for programs.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]