Author Topic: Benne on Bolz-Weber  (Read 14271 times)

D. Engebretson

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2018, 01:56:59 PM »
We also teach missionaries to learn the language of the people they are trying to reach. Nadia has been very intentional about the type of people she is reaching - and she speaks their language.

If I spoke in the "language" of the firefighters at my department - especially the crudity and misuse of God's name - I can't imagine that I would gain their ultimate respect as their chaplain.  Somehow, even though they may not reflect it, I think they expect me to rise above this and demonstrate the dignity of God's presence.  Bolz-Weber shows a clear disrespect for things holy, and I think that the youth and other young people to whom she appeals will certainly see a not-so-subtle endorsement of their own disregard for things holy.  If she is a "missionary" I fail to see the real Gospel in her proclamation.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

JEdwards

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2018, 02:19:48 PM »
Benne reminds us that both  Bolz-Weber and Presiding Bishop Elizabeth Eaton  spoke this past Summer
to the 31,000 at the ELCA Youth Gathering.  Obviously, Bishop Eaton had no problem with what Bolz-Weber
had to say to the youth.  It is disappointing that nobody in the ELCA leadership disapproves of the theology
and language of Bolz-Weber.

Another possibility (and I honestly am not sure which is the more charitable interpretation), is that there are some who disapprove of her theology and language, but are so cowed by fear of being labeled "judgmental" or "LCMS types", that they simply do their best to ignore her.

One of the root challenges facing the ELCA is a widespread rejection of the whole idea of authoritative teaching, with the corollary that any theological opinion expressed by anyone who occasionally attends (or at least has some kind of sentimental attachment to) an ELCA church is ipso facto a Lutheran way of looking at the issue.  While I have no desire for aggressive heresy-hunting and filing of charges, there is a wide middle ground between that option and acquiescence in whatever bizarre or offensive theology might be espoused by anyone purporting to represent the ELCA.

Peace,
Jon

gan ainm

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2018, 02:21:58 PM »
This is my best construction response re. NB-W's choice of words, her theology, her future art work, and her probable influence on ELCA youth and adults.  It is also my best construction response on ELCA leadership that permits it.








... gan ainm

jebutler

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2018, 02:44:41 PM »
Interestingly, he says nothing about Jamie Bruesehoff & Rebekah Bruesehoff speaking at the youth gathering: a mother and her transgender daughter. The crowd often cheered during the speech about acceptance of transgender youth.

The article is titled "Celebrity Theologian." He is focusing on NBW. The other folks don't have quite the following and ELCA "rock star" status as NBW.


As I recall, Martin Luther was a bit crude with his language.

Yes. And if he jumped off a cliff, should she? Come to think of it, Luther translated the entire New Testament from Greek into German in 11 weeks with a  quill pen. If she can do that, then she can use crude language too. Otherwise, don't.

We also teach missionaries to learn the language of the people they are trying to reach. Nadia has been very intentional about the type of people she is reaching - and she speaks their language.

I spend every Friday in the Norfolk County Jail. If I used profanity in my preaching, the inmates would be horribly offended (even though they are quite fluent in it). They do not want me to talk that way. They expect me to be better than that in my language.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Dave Benke

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2018, 03:18:29 PM »
Interestingly, he says nothing about Jamie Bruesehoff & Rebekah Bruesehoff speaking at the youth gathering: a mother and her transgender daughter. The crowd often cheered during the speech about acceptance of transgender youth.

The article is titled "Celebrity Theologian." He is focusing on NBW. The other folks don't have quite the following and ELCA "rock star" status as NBW.


As I recall, Martin Luther was a bit crude with his language.

Yes. And if he jumped off a cliff, should she? Come to think of it, Luther translated the entire New Testament from Greek into German in 11 weeks with a  quill pen. If she can do that, then she can use crude language too. Otherwise, don't.

We also teach missionaries to learn the language of the people they are trying to reach. Nadia has been very intentional about the type of people she is reaching - and she speaks their language.

I spend every Friday in the Norfolk County Jail. If I used profanity in my preaching, the inmates would be horribly offended (even though they are quite fluent in it). They do not want me to talk that way. They expect me to be better than that in my language.

Good answers, Jim.  My answers to the enclosed sections from Brian:
1)  Same
2) Not the same answer.  Way too many Lutherans give Luther the homeboy excuse (a child of his time) for everything crude and rude, up to and including the late-life rabid Anti-Semitism. And then double down by utilizing the "Lutheran Piety" response as the way to smoke and drink and chew like "real men."   Up to a point, and then beyond the pale. 
3) Sort of in agreement.  Having spent a boatload of time with ex and current offenders as well as on the streets of a particularly mean part of this city, I don't overload the world with F-bombs, and pretty much never with the congregants or kids, so I'm with you.  But stuff does come out under stress.  True confessions, back in the day our church softball team was suspended from the league for throwing F-bombs after an altercation involving an umpire who had a close relative on the other team, and demonstrated that in his calls.  I had to apologize at the altar for that language the next day in order to play the next weekend.  Notably, I had to include myself personally in the apology.  For being an F-bomb tosser. 

I can't imagine that inmates/offenders/ex-offenders would throw you off the island for throwing a few choice words out there once in awhile.  You're still their go-to God guy.  But each context is different.

They did put in an anti-nepotist umpire clause the next year in the softball league, so justice prevailed. 

Dave Benke

jebutler

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2018, 03:28:28 PM »
Interestingly, he says nothing about Jamie Bruesehoff & Rebekah Bruesehoff speaking at the youth gathering: a mother and her transgender daughter. The crowd often cheered during the speech about acceptance of transgender youth.

The article is titled "Celebrity Theologian." He is focusing on NBW. The other folks don't have quite the following and ELCA "rock star" status as NBW.


As I recall, Martin Luther was a bit crude with his language.

Yes. And if he jumped off a cliff, should she? Come to think of it, Luther translated the entire New Testament from Greek into German in 11 weeks with a  quill pen. If she can do that, then she can use crude language too. Otherwise, don't.

We also teach missionaries to learn the language of the people they are trying to reach. Nadia has been very intentional about the type of people she is reaching - and she speaks their language.

I spend every Friday in the Norfolk County Jail. If I used profanity in my preaching, the inmates would be horribly offended (even though they are quite fluent in it). They do not want me to talk that way. They expect me to be better than that in my language.

Good answers, Jim.  My answers to the enclosed sections from Brian:
1)  Same
2) Not the same answer.  Way too many Lutherans give Luther the homeboy excuse (a child of his time) for everything crude and rude, up to and including the late-life rabid Anti-Semitism. And then double down by utilizing the "Lutheran Piety" response as the way to smoke and drink and chew like "real men."   Up to a point, and then beyond the pale. 
3) Sort of in agreement.  Having spent a boatload of time with ex and current offenders as well as on the streets of a particularly mean part of this city, I don't overload the world with F-bombs, and pretty much never with the congregants or kids, so I'm with you.  But stuff does come out under stress.  True confessions, back in the day our church softball team was suspended from the league for throwing F-bombs after an altercation involving an umpire who had a close relative on the other team, and demonstrated that in his calls.  I had to apologize at the altar for that language the next day in order to play the next weekend.  Notably, I had to include myself personally in the apology.  For being an F-bomb tosser. 

I can't imagine that inmates/offenders/ex-offenders would throw you off the island for throwing a few choice words out there once in awhile.  You're still their go-to God guy.  But each context is different.

They did put in an anti-nepotist umpire clause the next year in the softball league, so justice prevailed. 

Dave Benke

Thank you, Dave.

As to Q2, I've used it with many of our LCMS brothers who I've called out on their language and behavior on various boards and lists over the years. They almost always point to Luther's crude language. I always point them to Luther's brilliance (his volume of output and translation skills) and note that if they can meet his brilliance, then they can use his crude language. Otherwise, don't.

Q3. I think using profanity "under stress" is one thing. (And nepotistic umpires deserve it. I remember nearly losing it with an umpire during a couple of daughter's softball games back in the day.) The inmates would understand. They would also give me a very hard time about it! But she uses it casually in her preaching and teaching. That's what the inmates would find offensive.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2018, 03:31:44 PM »
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Dave Likeness

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2018, 03:47:07 PM »
Concerning Nepotism and Fast-Pitch Softball:


During the Summer following my high school graduation I pitched for our hometown church team
in a Davenport, Iowa Park District League.  Holy Cross Lutheran Church was scheduled to play
Kickapoo Tavern in an 8 pm game under the lights     My father was scheduled to umpire behind
the plate.  He called both managers together and said,"My son is pitching for one team and my
brother is pitching for the other team.  I have decided to umpire the bases and not behind the plate."

Later the Park District official who scheduled umpires apologized to my dad.  The scheduler had always
made certain that my father never umpired any games involving me or my uncle. 

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2018, 03:52:16 PM »
I appreciate the timing of posting this article on the eve of the universal Feast of St. Nicholas, Bishop of Myra.

Bob Benne has delivered a digital boxing to this latter day Arius. ;D
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

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Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2018, 03:52:49 PM »
They had lights back then, Dave?
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Dave Likeness

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2018, 04:01:13 PM »
@Don......They not only had lighted fields, they had dugouts for each team, and a public address system,
public toilets, and concession stands.  Of course the fans got to sit in some genuine bleachers and the
players wore their team uniform. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 04:31:23 PM by Dave Likeness »

Dave Benke

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2018, 04:45:58 PM »
Interestingly, he says nothing about Jamie Bruesehoff & Rebekah Bruesehoff speaking at the youth gathering: a mother and her transgender daughter. The crowd often cheered during the speech about acceptance of transgender youth.

The article is titled "Celebrity Theologian." He is focusing on NBW. The other folks don't have quite the following and ELCA "rock star" status as NBW.


As I recall, Martin Luther was a bit crude with his language.

Yes. And if he jumped off a cliff, should she? Come to think of it, Luther translated the entire New Testament from Greek into German in 11 weeks with a  quill pen. If she can do that, then she can use crude language too. Otherwise, don't.

We also teach missionaries to learn the language of the people they are trying to reach. Nadia has been very intentional about the type of people she is reaching - and she speaks their language.

I spend every Friday in the Norfolk County Jail. If I used profanity in my preaching, the inmates would be horribly offended (even though they are quite fluent in it). They do not want me to talk that way. They expect me to be better than that in my language.

Good answers, Jim.  My answers to the enclosed sections from Brian:
1)  Same
2) Not the same answer.  Way too many Lutherans give Luther the homeboy excuse (a child of his time) for everything crude and rude, up to and including the late-life rabid Anti-Semitism. And then double down by utilizing the "Lutheran Piety" response as the way to smoke and drink and chew like "real men."   Up to a point, and then beyond the pale. 
3) Sort of in agreement.  Having spent a boatload of time with ex and current offenders as well as on the streets of a particularly mean part of this city, I don't overload the world with F-bombs, and pretty much never with the congregants or kids, so I'm with you.  But stuff does come out under stress.  True confessions, back in the day our church softball team was suspended from the league for throwing F-bombs after an altercation involving an umpire who had a close relative on the other team, and demonstrated that in his calls.  I had to apologize at the altar for that language the next day in order to play the next weekend.  Notably, I had to include myself personally in the apology.  For being an F-bomb tosser. 

I can't imagine that inmates/offenders/ex-offenders would throw you off the island for throwing a few choice words out there once in awhile.  You're still their go-to God guy.  But each context is different.

They did put in an anti-nepotist umpire clause the next year in the softball league, so justice prevailed. 

Dave Benke

Thank you, Dave.

As to Q2, I've used it with many of our LCMS brothers who I've called out on their language and behavior on various boards and lists over the years. They almost always point to Luther's crude language. I always point them to Luther's brilliance (his volume of output and translation skills) and note that if they can meet his brilliance, then they can use his crude language. Otherwise, don't.

Q3. I think using profanity "under stress" is one thing. (And nepotistic umpires deserve it. I remember nearly losing it with an umpire during a couple of daughter's softball games back in the day.) The inmates would understand. They would also give me a very hard time about it! But she uses it casually in her preaching and teaching. That's what the inmates would find offensive.

Agreed on all counts, Jim

Dave Benke

Dave Benke

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2018, 05:16:04 PM »
Look what popped up on my FB timeline:

https://www.facebook.com/sarcasticlutheran/photos/gm.787067614974952/1998754100231844/?type=3&theater

Thanks for this, Don.  This helps me fill out the picture a bit.

a) NBW is going on a fully national book tour.  A lot of mileage is being put on to promote this, because
b) Her last book, Accidental Saints, was an actual NYTimes best-seller.  Hence the whole "Rock Star" appellation, which makes a little more sense, although the rock stars don't usually start with the book
c) I didn't check my instagram yet, but she does have 212,000 Facebook followers and around 200000 likes.  Which is, at least to me, substantial.  (I know - gan ainm, who isn't even identified or identifiable, has probably three million facebook followers, but the rest of us mere mortals struggle along with 121.  In fact, Concordia Publishing House has around 20000 likes, or 1/10 of the NBW total to date) .  Who knew?  Again, more going on there than I knew, which indicates this truth - what do I know?  Not much.
d) however, on the basis of Christian doctrine, she's well out of synch.  And not being corrected by any who are ostensibly in synch.  So there's that.
e) I will say that, not having read it, the narrative of Accidental Saints attracted me - kind of I Corinthians 1/2.  An odd assortment of folks experience God's grace, because it's available to all, and all are pretty much invariably odd.  "Not many of high birth, not many....."  Motley Cru.

Dave Benke

mj4

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2018, 10:14:06 PM »
I first heard Nadia BW interviewed by Krista Tippet, and found her talk then, more than 8 years ago to be quite solid and very Lutheran with a good grasp of Law and Gospel that seems to be missing from much of her later stuff.  While I would agree with her willingness to ask the hard questions and take on tough topics, especially with the youth, I don't agree with her choice of language and the recent "pushing the envelop for the sake of pushing."

This is my take as well. 

Dave Benke

Mine too.

The comparison with President Trump is apt, I think. Both have achieved a celebrity status such that those who should hold them accountable are intimidated. Sad.

DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2018, 11:55:11 PM »
I'd guess that there have been a good number of letters written to PB Eaton this summer concerning NBW.  I wrote one myself concerning ULS and whether students holding traditional views on marriage were welcome at ELCA seminaries.  Reports on some of these attempts are available at the CORE website. 

The fact that the PB is silent about NBW is not evidence that no one has complained.
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?