Author Topic: Benne on Bolz-Weber  (Read 14273 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2018, 11:15:33 AM »

As to language, I make a three way distinction as to "bad" language: cursing, swearing and vulgarity.  Cursing is calling upon God to make bad things happen, including damnation, to the object of the cursing.  Swearing is calling upon God to witness to, attest, and punish deviation from the truth of what is spoken.  Both of these categories have upon rare occasions appropriate uses and when improper involve using the Lord's Name in vain.  The rest is vulgarities such as s***, f***, and similar language and four letter words.  (Let's not forget that golf is a four letter word, and as we enter winter here in Michigan, Minnesota and the rest of the norther tier of states, so is snow.)  While I may not like the casual use of vulgarities, it doesn't really break a commandment.  It may betray a certain lack of imagination and command of language.  I sometimes wonder, if one uses such vulgarities as to make the air blue in regular conversation, what is left to say when one gets really upset.


(In the 1980 movie "Hopscotch" the director of the CIA is played by Ned Beatty as a totally ineffectual character.  One of the ways this is portrayed on screen is his constant use of vulgar language.  He simply cannot express himself without vulgarities - thus demonstrating his incompetence.)


Contrary to what some have come to understand as accepted and normative theology, the acceptance of pre-, post- and extra-marital sexual relationships, same-sex sexual relationships, same-sex marriage and gender fluidity as part of God's plan for human sexuality, accepted by God and to be accepted by all in the same way that heterosexual marital sexual relationships have been accepted has not come to be understood by all as simply orthodox theology with opposition to the same as aberrant theology bordering on heresy (or as close to heresy as this post-modern theologically pluralistic theological environment is willing to allow).  The solemn renunciations of(and pronouncement of anathema upon?) opposition to making same-sex sexual relationships normative I find offensive.  This goes far beyond Pr. Bolz-Weber adapting her language and look to fit with her intended audience.  I would have no place in a church that embraces her take on God's will as normative.  I doubt that I have a place in her version of Christianity, having been anathematized by her.  (Not by name, naturally, but my beliefs having been renounced and cast out.)  Apparently, Pr. Bolz-Weber's theology has evolved along with her style of presentation, from advocating and acceptance of LGBTQ to a rejection and renunciation of any opposition to whatever the LGBTQ community promotes.  Those who disagree are to be excluded.


Might I suggest that this is one reason many of us in the LCMS are not comfortable embracing the idea that the ELCA is just a slightly different flavor of Lutheran and so we should be in altar and pulpit with them.  At least one accepted strand of the ELCA views our beliefs as something to be renounced, not coexisted with.


God loves us and accepts us just as we are, sinners.  But that acceptance does not say to the sinner, "Be of good cheer, yours sins are accepted, no need to repent, go and keep on doing whatever you've been doing."
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:32:17 AM by Dan Fienen »
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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DeHall1

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2018, 11:24:31 AM »
Interestingly, he says nothing about Jamie Bruesehoff & Rebekah Bruesehoff speaking at the youth gathering: a mother and her transgender daughter. The crowd often cheered during the speech about acceptance of transgender youth.

The article is titled "Celebrity Theologian." He is focusing on NBW. The other folks don't have quite the following and ELCA "rock star" status as NBW.


And yet, if she is so terrible, how did she get that status? Why do thousands buy her books? Why was her congregation growing in numbers when so many others are declining? Why are so many of her members the type of people who didn't "fit" into traditional congregations?

Easy answer...
            "You gave me fortune
             You gave me fame
             You gave me power in your own god's name
             I'm every person you need to be
             Oh, I'm the cult of personality..."
             - Living Colour, "Cult of Personality"

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2018, 11:26:26 AM »
Rev. Fienen,,


When I was a child, my parents forbid vulgarities.  As an adult, in the work-place, so did my employers.  As a pastor now, so does my congregation.   So, for me to use vulgarities IS a sin: breaking the Fourth Commandment. 

Dan Fienen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2018, 11:37:38 AM »
Rev. Fienen,,


When I was a child, my parents forbid vulgarities.  As an adult, in the work-place, so did my employers.  As a pastor now, so does my congregation.   So, for me to use vulgarities IS a sin: breaking the Fourth Commandment.



But not the second.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2018, 11:48:27 AM »
"While I may not like the casual use of vulgarities, it doesn't really break a commandment.  It may betray a certain lack of imagination and command of language."

some vulgarities deprecate the human body, its function and God-given and blessed sexuality and its expression.  I would assume that is a sin.  To say nothing of applying some vulgarity to a person or personal, throwing it into their face and referencing them thusly.
Harvey S. Mozolak
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DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2018, 01:56:05 PM »
I'm reminded of when I was taught to plot a line Algebra class.  You have a starting point, then a second, third, fourth, etc...  When you are done you can predict fairly well where the next point on the line will be.

If you plot the trajectory of change in the ELCA beginning in 2009 there are multiple plot points.  The starting point is HSGT with its 4 positions.  The second point is the implementing resolutions that were passed at the same assembly, which limited positions 1,2 and 3 to congregations.  Other points include the purging of the faculty at LTSS, he inclusion without discussion of Bisexuality and Transgenderism as orientations that were positively affirmed by the ELCA, the Naked and Ashamed Manifesto, the purging of United Lutheran Seminary, the condemnation of traditional Christian views of marriage at the 2018 Youth Gathering, and now NBW's vagina sculpture.  Anyone who can plot a trajectory can see where we are heading and can predict where we are going.  Only a radical change of course will see NBW rebuked by a bishop of the ELCA and reigned in. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2018, 02:04:13 PM »
Pastor Charlton writes:
Only a radical change of course will see NBW rebuked by a bishop of the ELCA and reigned in.

I comment:
If She is reigned in, does that mean we make her queen?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2018, 02:09:08 PM »
"While I may not like the casual use of vulgarities, it doesn't really break a commandment.  It may betray a certain lack of imagination and command of language."

some vulgarities deprecate the human body, its function and God-given and blessed sexuality and its expression.  I would assume that is a sin.  To say nothing of applying some vulgarity to a person or personal, throwing it into their face and referencing them thusly.

Indeed, Harvey. Not the 2nd? So what, Dan? I recall, something about leading "a chaste and decent life in word and deed."

"Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear." Eph 4:29

"Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving." Eph 5:4

"Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him."  Prov 29:20

 
Pr. Don Kirchner

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Rev Geminn

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2018, 02:49:01 PM »
Interestingly, he says nothing about Jamie Bruesehoff & Rebekah Bruesehoff speaking at the youth gathering: a mother and her transgender daughter. The crowd often cheered during the speech about acceptance of transgender youth.

The article is titled "Celebrity Theologian." He is focusing on NBW. The other folks don't have quite the following and ELCA "rock star" status as NBW.


And yet, if she is so terrible, how did she get that status? Why do thousands buy her books? Why was her congregation growing in numbers when so many others are declining? Why are so many of her members the type of people who didn't "fit" into traditional congregations?

Easy answer...
            "You gave me fortune
             You gave me fame
             You gave me power in your own god's name
             I'm every person you need to be
             Oh, I'm the cult of personality..."
             - Living Colour, "Cult of Personality"

I'm really excited that someone quoted Living Colour.  I never would've thought such would happen here.  More importantly, though, Living Colour was greatly influenced by the greatest band of all time which, of course, is the Bad Brains.:) I hope Nadia knows of them but then again who knows.  Rastas playing hardcore. Can't go wrong there.  Also, so "multicultural" as the hip Missourians like to say.;D

Dan Fienen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2018, 02:58:31 PM »

I don't intend to defend the casual use of vulgarities, its not a good practice for a number of reasons.  But if I were to criticize Pr. Bolz-Weber's presentations and works, her use of vulgarities would be relatively low on my priority list.  It can be argued, as is, as to whether her use of vulgarities is appropriate in order to communicate with her intended audience and what sort of a message her vulgarity conveys.  Personally it seems to me rather condescending as though telling the audience that I don't think that they can understand "polite" language.  (To be continually correcting vulgarities could also be condescending, my preference is to ignore the vulgarities of others and proceed with the conversation.)  If she herself cannot communicate without vulgarities (and apparently earlier she could easily) that would be another problem.


A related problem with speakers who continually use vulgarities is if the use is intended to be rude or itself condescending, as though conversation is not real or authentic if not punctuated with vulgarity.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2018, 03:11:59 PM »
P.S. to Pastor Bohler Charles Austin:
Do you ever respond to actual content or do you remain fixed on your impression of the one posting? (Can you ever, even in eternity, forget that [fill in name here] once did something that burned your biscuits?)....

Fixed it for you.
You're welcome.

Thank you!

spt+
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DeHall1

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2018, 04:07:58 PM »
Pastor Charlton writes:
Only a radical change of course will see NBW rebuked by a bishop of the ELCA and reigned in.

I comment:
If She is reigned in, does that mean we make her queen?

I comment:
Pretty sure you already have....

DCharlton

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2018, 04:14:08 PM »
Pastor Charlton writes:
Only a radical change of course will see NBW rebuked by a bishop of the ELCA and reigned in.

I comment:
If She is reigned in, does that mean we make her queen?


I think "queen" is too binary.  How about "royal sovereign"? ;)
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Richard Johnson

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2018, 09:43:18 PM »
  Obviously, Bishop Eaton had no problem with what Bolz-Weber
had to say to the youth.  It is disappointing that nobody in the ELCA leadership disapproves of the theology
and language of Bolz-Weber.

I'm not sure that either of those statements is correct.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2018, 09:44:51 PM »

Interestingly, he says nothing about Jamie Bruesehoff & Rebekah Bruesehoff speaking at the youth gathering: a mother and her transgender daughter.

He says quite a bit about that in another article in First Things.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS