Author Topic: Benne on Bolz-Weber  (Read 15220 times)

readselerttoo

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #165 on: December 12, 2018, 02:20:19 PM »
It is a problematic issue when you discuss ELCA pastors teaching youth confirmation classes.
Do they tell youth that God approves of homosexual practice and sodomy or do they boldly
declare that homosexual practice and sodomy is a sin against God?

Do they tell youth that transgender surgery is an option for them or do they boldly declare
that God created them to be the gender they were born with?

Do they tell youth that bisexual activity is an option for them or do they boldly declare that
God wants us to remain faithful to our marital spouse?

Do they tell youth that "marriage" between two lesbians is a good thing or do they boldly declare
that God instituted marriage between one man and one woman?

Bottom Line: You cannot water down the 6th Commandment in youth confirmation classes and
still teach the truth of God's Word.

Correct. You cannot have God and mammon as well.

peterm

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #166 on: December 12, 2018, 02:24:03 PM »
It is a problematic issue when you discuss ELCA pastors teaching youth confirmation classes.
Do they tell youth that God approves of homosexual practice and sodomy or do they boldly
declare that homosexual practice and sodomy is a sin against God?

Do they tell youth that transgender surgery is an option for them or do they boldly declare
that God created them to be the gender they were born with?

Do they tell youth that bisexual activity is an option for them or do they boldly declare that
God wants us to remain faithful to our marital spouse?

Do they tell youth that "marriage" between two lesbians is a good thing or do they boldly declare
that God instituted marriage between one man and one woman?

Bottom Line: You cannot water down the 6th Commandment in youth confirmation classes and
still teach the truth of God's Word.

We haven't discussed transgender surgery, but on all the others they have been taught marriage is the only appropriate place for sexual activity and that  marriage is between one man and one woman.  They have been told that what the Bible teaches is different from what our culture teaches and that they cannot take for granted that everyone agrees with us.  The greater stumbling block from the student perspective would probably be the prohibition of pre-marital sex and divorce. 

The majority of my colleagues might well be horrified if they knew I taught in that way, but ELCA policy gurantees me the right to do so.

Same here
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

readselerttoo

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #167 on: December 12, 2018, 02:26:42 PM »
It is a problematic issue when you discuss ELCA pastors teaching youth confirmation classes.
Do they tell youth that God approves of homosexual practice and sodomy or do they boldly
declare that homosexual practice and sodomy is a sin against God?

Do they tell youth that transgender surgery is an option for them or do they boldly declare
that God created them to be the gender they were born with?

Do they tell youth that bisexual activity is an option for them or do they boldly declare that
God wants us to remain faithful to our marital spouse?

Do they tell youth that "marriage" between two lesbians is a good thing or do they boldly declare
that God instituted marriage between one man and one woman?

Bottom Line: You cannot water down the 6th Commandment in youth confirmation classes and
still teach the truth of God's Word.

We haven't discussed transgender surgery, but on all the others they have been taught marriage is the only appropriate place for sexual activity and that  marriage is between one man and one woman.  They have been told that what the Bible teaches is different from what our culture teaches and that they cannot take for granted that everyone agrees with us.  The greater stumbling block from the student perspective would probably be the prohibition of pre-marital sex and divorce. 

The majority of my colleagues might well be horrified if they knew I taught in that way, but ELCA policy gurantees me the right to do so.

Same here

You are of the courageous ones.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #168 on: December 12, 2018, 03:35:16 PM »

I'll have to let the editors of my dictionary know that they need to be corrected to Tibbetts. I looked up "queerness" before I posted. This is what it has:

1 the state or condition of being strange: the queerness of it gave me a kind of fright.

2 informal, often offensive homosexuality.
• the quality or characteristic of having a sexual or gender identity that does not correspond to established ideas of sexuality and gender, especially heterosexual norms: in the conversation about identity, queerness, and the trans experience there's a lot that many of us have to learn.

There's nothing about behaviors in the dictionary definition.

Go ahead and read your dictionaries, Brian. 

Don't interact with people, secular or religious, who actually use, study, and/or propagate "queer" except as we used it on the playground when we were kids in the '60s.  Don't listen to anyone who identifies with "the LGBTQ community" as they use the word "Queer" in distinction form lesbian or gay.  ReconcilingWorks has not been the Lutherans Concerned you, Jim Lokken (of blessed memory), Charles Austin, and I talked about 20 years ago on LutherLink for a long time. 

When you read/hear LSTC theologians speak (or preach) of "Queer Theology" they are not talking simply about the theology of people whose (to use your usual sterile, clinical language) sexual fantasies are with persons of the same sex.  The "Q" in "LGBTQ" is not just a non-binary alternate for "gay" or "lesbian," or a less clinical word for "homosexual," or part of an in-family use of otherwise-derogatory slurs for feminine guys or butch gals. 

But it helps your (singular) cause to actually not ask Nadia Bolz-Weber (or any of her allies) what she means when she glorifies "Queerness" at the ELCA Youth Gathering, because it allows you (singular) to continue your (singular) little word games pretending that it is all of little true consequence. 

Fraternally, Steven+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #169 on: December 12, 2018, 05:33:59 PM »
Charles is right. The LCMS has always found ways to disagree with the ELCA and its predecessors. 2009 changed nothing; it simply added one more complaint to a list of hundreds.

2009 did give an added advantage for the right wing of Missouri. Opposition to open endorsement of homosexuality is easier to sell politically than say, closed communion. Missouri's right wing often has problems convincing lay people of the need for its isolationist practices. 2009 was a real gift from the ELCA to that important Missouri group.   :)

Peace, JOHN

I think there is a huge difference between 1. The LCMS disagrees with ELCA doctrine, and 2. The LCMS says God's Word, Holy Scripture, disagrees with ELCA doctrine.


No, there is essentially no difference. The second is still the LCMS’s interpretation of Holy Scriptures
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

gan ainm

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #170 on: December 12, 2018, 05:42:49 PM »
Charles is right. The LCMS has always found ways to disagree with the ELCA and its predecessors. 2009 changed nothing; it simply added one more complaint to a list of hundreds.

2009 did give an added advantage for the right wing of Missouri. Opposition to open endorsement of homosexuality is easier to sell politically than say, closed communion. Missouri's right wing often has problems convincing lay people of the need for its isolationist practices. 2009 was a real gift from the ELCA to that important Missouri group.   :)

Peace, JOHN

I think there is a huge difference between 1. The LCMS disagrees with ELCA doctrine, and 2. The LCMS says God's Word, Holy Scripture, disagrees with ELCA doctrine.


No, there is essentially no difference. The second is still the LCMS’s interpretation of Holy Scriptures

Another perspective is the first is more inwardly focused (as Luther would say, bent inward) and could be perceived as judgemental, the second is more externally focused on God who says judgement is mine.   8)


Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #171 on: December 12, 2018, 05:47:25 PM »
Pastor Peters writes:
 the ELCA admits that it has chosen to leave behind Scripture, the Confessions, and to depart from the catholic tradition in matters of the ordination of women and the GLBTQ issues, to name but two.
I ask:
Can you show me, Pastor Peters, where we have said - "admitted" - that we leave behind Scripture? Please cite our documents, our ecumenical agreements or statement of faith to prove your assertion. Having been closely involved with both those issues, I remember quite a large amount of discussion concerning Scripture, the confessions and the "catholic tradition." 
I'm not Pastor Peters, but I was at the 2009 CWA.  The social statement as passed by the CWA acknowledged the acceptance of homosexual  relationships “differs from the historic Christian tradition and the Lutheran Confessions,” Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust  p. 29 lines 740-741


This is part of a paragraph related to same-sex marriage. It is true that Christian tradition did not allow them.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #172 on: December 12, 2018, 06:10:48 PM »
It is a problematic issue when you discuss ELCA pastors teaching youth confirmation classes.
Do they tell youth that God approves of homosexual practice and sodomy or do they boldly
declare that homosexual practice and sodomy is a sin against God?


Yup, just like wearing cloth made of two kinds of fabric.

Quote
Do they tell youth that bisexual activity is an option for them or do they boldly declare that
God wants us to remain faithful to our marital spouse?


We declare that folks are to remain faithful to their spouses. We've done that for centuries. I notice that our teachings hasn't slowed the number of divorces one bit.

Quote
Do they tell youth that "marriage" between two lesbians is a good thing or do they boldly declare
that God instituted marriage between one man and one woman?


Any youth who has read the Old Testament knows that marriages was not between one man and one woman.

Quote
Bottom Line: You cannot water down the 6th Commandment in youth confirmation classes and
still teach the truth of God's Word.


Not watered down one iota. Marriages (whether heterosexual or homosexual) are governed by the commandment. All are to "lead pure and decent lives in word and deed." All are to "love and honor our spouses."
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #173 on: December 12, 2018, 06:13:56 PM »
Charles is right. The LCMS has always found ways to disagree with the ELCA and its predecessors. 2009 changed nothing; it simply added one more complaint to a list of hundreds.

2009 did give an added advantage for the right wing of Missouri. Opposition to open endorsement of homosexuality is easier to sell politically than say, closed communion. Missouri's right wing often has problems convincing lay people of the need for its isolationist practices. 2009 was a real gift from the ELCA to that important Missouri group.   :)

Peace, JOHN

I think there is a huge difference between 1. The LCMS disagrees with ELCA doctrine, and 2. The LCMS says God's Word, Holy Scripture, disagrees with ELCA doctrine.


No, there is essentially no difference. The second is still the LCMS’s interpretation of Holy Scriptures

Another perspective is the first is more inwardly focused (as Luther would say, bent inward) and could be perceived as judgemental, the second is more externally focused on God who says judgement is mine.   8)


Nope, your "externally focused" gets filtered through one's own inwards. Both the ELCA and LCMS look to scriptures and our confessions to guide our decisions; yet, because we have different ways of interpreting them, we, over the centuries, have come to different conclusions about what they say and mean.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

gan ainm

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #174 on: December 12, 2018, 08:36:14 PM »
Charles is right. The LCMS has always found ways to disagree with the ELCA and its predecessors. 2009 changed nothing; it simply added one more complaint to a list of hundreds.

2009 did give an added advantage for the right wing of Missouri. Opposition to open endorsement of homosexuality is easier to sell politically than say, closed communion. Missouri's right wing often has problems convincing lay people of the need for its isolationist practices. 2009 was a real gift from the ELCA to that important Missouri group.   :)

Peace, JOHN

I think there is a huge difference between 1. The LCMS disagrees with ELCA doctrine, and 2. The LCMS says God's Word, Holy Scripture, disagrees with ELCA doctrine.


No, there is essentially no difference. The second is still the LCMS’s interpretation of Holy Scriptures

Another perspective is the first is more inwardly focused (as Luther would say, bent inward) and could be perceived as judgemental, the second is more externally focused on God who says judgement is mine.   8)


Nope, your "externally focused" gets filtered through one's own inwards. Both the ELCA and LCMS look to scriptures and our confessions to guide our decisions; yet, because we have different ways of interpreting them, we, over the centuries, have come to different conclusions about what they say and mean.

Gosh, the LCMS and ELCA have been around far longer than I thought.   ;)  Or, did WE suddenly jump from the context of this discussion to  a different WE by YOUR interpretation?   :o  And, for the difference in interpretation of Scripture between THEE and ME, I'm not willing to bet my eternity on your method of Scripture interpretation that rewrites Christian doctrine of the past two thousand years, are you?

« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 08:38:55 PM by gan ainm »

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #175 on: December 12, 2018, 10:27:18 PM »
Charles is right. The LCMS has always found ways to disagree with the ELCA and its predecessors. 2009 changed nothing; it simply added one more complaint to a list of hundreds.

2009 did give an added advantage for the right wing of Missouri. Opposition to open endorsement of homosexuality is easier to sell politically than say, closed communion. Missouri's right wing often has problems convincing lay people of the need for its isolationist practices. 2009 was a real gift from the ELCA to that important Missouri group.   :)

Peace, JOHN

I think there is a huge difference between 1. The LCMS disagrees with ELCA doctrine, and 2. The LCMS says God's Word, Holy Scripture, disagrees with ELCA doctrine.


No, there is essentially no difference. The second is still the LCMS’s interpretation of Holy Scriptures

Another perspective is the first is more inwardly focused (as Luther would say, bent inward) and could be perceived as judgemental, the second is more externally focused on God who says judgement is mine.   8)


Nope, your "externally focused" gets filtered through one's own inwards. Both the ELCA and LCMS look to scriptures and our confessions to guide our decisions; yet, because we have different ways of interpreting them, we, over the centuries, have come to different conclusions about what they say and mean.

Gosh, the LCMS and ELCA have been around far longer than I thought.   ;)  Or, did WE suddenly jump from the context of this discussion to  a different WE by YOUR interpretation?   :o  And, for the difference in interpretation of Scripture between THEE and ME, I'm not willing to bet my eternity on your method of Scripture interpretation that rewrites Christian doctrine of the past two thousand years, are you?


Who has rewritten Christian doctrine. I've stressed over and over and over again the core Christian doctrine since Paul established it: We are sinners saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.


I believe that it's those folks who insist that a particular opinion about abortion or homosexual relationships are required for salvation who are messing with the traditional doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. I don't believe that one's eternity is determined by a particular position on those two issues. Do you?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #176 on: December 12, 2018, 10:50:06 PM »
The Anonymous One writes:
And, for the difference in interpretation of Scripture between THEE and ME, I'm not willing to bet my eternity on your method of Scripture interpretation that rewrites Christian doctrine of the past two thousand years, are you?

I comment:
See above.
On second thought. Never mind.
I think I am closer to knowing the identity of the Anonymous One. And it is so disturbing that I believe I am probably wrong.
The cowardly poster has stated that Judgment belongs to God.
So since the AO so relishes pronouncing judgment, therefore.....
But no. The Christian God is a God of mercy and love and there is not a whiff of that in any of AO's postings.
The AO is not God.
But thinks he is. 
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #177 on: December 13, 2018, 12:42:47 AM »
So, is ya'll the ELCA spelling of y'all?   ;) How is that pronounced? Ya' ill ?

Ya + all = ya'll.  It's pronounced with a double, not a single a:  yaall ;)

Actually, it's the contraction between "you" and "all," and therefore "y'all."  Used so much around my parts that I've picked it up as well!   ;D ;)

Yes, as I stated. We received a thank you from Eric Johnson, President of the LCMS Southern District for our disaster relief door offering/donation. He hand wrote: "Wow! Y'all are great!" That's LA.
Don Kirchner

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gan ainm

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #178 on: December 13, 2018, 08:05:32 AM »
Charles is right. The LCMS has always found ways to disagree with the ELCA and its predecessors. 2009 changed nothing; it simply added one more complaint to a list of hundreds.

2009 did give an added advantage for the right wing of Missouri. Opposition to open endorsement of homosexuality is easier to sell politically than say, closed communion. Missouri's right wing often has problems convincing lay people of the need for its isolationist practices. 2009 was a real gift from the ELCA to that important Missouri group.   :)

Peace, JOHN

I think there is a huge difference between 1. The LCMS disagrees with ELCA doctrine, and 2. The LCMS says God's Word, Holy Scripture, disagrees with ELCA doctrine.


No, there is essentially no difference. The second is still the LCMS’s interpretation of Holy Scriptures

Another perspective is the first is more inwardly focused (as Luther would say, bent inward) and could be perceived as judgemental, the second is more externally focused on God who says judgement is mine.   8)


Nope, your "externally focused" gets filtered through one's own inwards. Both the ELCA and LCMS look to scriptures and our confessions to guide our decisions; yet, because we have different ways of interpreting them, we, over the centuries, have come to different conclusions about what they say and mean.

Gosh, the LCMS and ELCA have been around far longer than I thought.   ;)  Or, did WE suddenly jump from the context of this discussion to  a different WE by YOUR interpretation?   :o  And, for the difference in interpretation of Scripture between THEE and ME, I'm not willing to bet my eternity on your method of Scripture interpretation that rewrites Christian doctrine of the past two thousand years, are you?


Who has rewritten Christian doctrine. I've stressed over and over and over again the core Christian doctrine since Paul established it: We are sinners saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.


I believe that it's those folks who insist that a particular opinion about abortion or homosexual relationships are required for salvation who are messing with the traditional doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. I don't believe that one's eternity is determined by a particular position on those two issues. Do you?

An eternity separated from God will happen only to we sinners if there is no repentance and a turning back to God's Word.  Repent and remember your baptism at least daily is a good practice to follow. 

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Re: Benne on Bolz-Weber
« Reply #179 on: December 13, 2018, 08:48:25 AM »
Charles is right. The LCMS has always found ways to disagree with the ELCA and its predecessors. 2009 changed nothing; it simply added one more complaint to a list of hundreds.

2009 did give an added advantage for the right wing of Missouri. Opposition to open endorsement of homosexuality is easier to sell politically than say, closed communion. Missouri's right wing often has problems convincing lay people of the need for its isolationist practices. 2009 was a real gift from the ELCA to that important Missouri group.   :)

Peace, JOHN

I think there is a huge difference between 1. The LCMS disagrees with ELCA doctrine, and 2. The LCMS says God's Word, Holy Scripture, disagrees with ELCA doctrine.

No, there is essentially no difference. The second is still the LCMS’s interpretation of Holy Scriptures

Another perspective is the first is more inwardly focused (as Luther would say, bent inward) and could be perceived as judgemental, the second is more externally focused on God who says judgement is mine.   8)


Nope, your "externally focused" gets filtered through one's own inwards. Both the ELCA and LCMS look to scriptures and our confessions to guide our decisions; yet, because we have different ways of interpreting them, we, over the centuries, have come to different conclusions about what they say and mean.

Gosh, the LCMS and ELCA have been around far longer than I thought.   ;)  Or, did WE suddenly jump from the context of this discussion to  a different WE by YOUR interpretation?   :o  And, for the difference in interpretation of Scripture between THEE and ME, I'm not willing to bet my eternity on your method of Scripture interpretation that rewrites Christian doctrine of the past two thousand years, are you?

Who has rewritten Christian doctrine. I've stressed over and over and over again the core Christian doctrine since Paul established it: We are sinners saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I believe that it's those folks who insist that a particular opinion about abortion or homosexual relationships are required for salvation who are messing with the traditional doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. I don't believe that one's eternity is determined by a particular position on those two issues. Do you?

Yes, I do. You're right back into your antinomian view, Brian, failing to properly distinguish Law and Gospel. Perhaps Tim Pauls can help you out.

http://scholia.net/files/sermons_adventchristmas/14%20Series%203%20Absolution%20Del.%20fr.%20Judgment%20John%2012%20v.%2046-50%20(TJP).pdf

Your view is the rationalizing of sin about which he speaks, thereby hanging on to a particular sin, rejecting God's grace, and that's the one that'll get you.

"Thesis XIX.

In the fifteenth place, the Word of God is not rightly divided when the preacher speaks of certain sins as if there were not of a damnable, but of a venial nature." [ Walther's Law and Gospel]
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 08:56:43 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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