Author Topic: Lutheran Orthodox Church?  (Read 1779 times)

Mike Bennett

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Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« on: November 23, 2018, 12:01:01 PM »
Does anybody have useful information about or experience with this body?  I recently became aware of it, but have been unable to learn anything useful, such as where the nearest congregation might be.  The web site says to e-mail to ask, but I am just peeking right now. The main thing I have learned is that there are more than a dozen archbishops. I presume therefore that there must be quite a few congregations.
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Charles Austin

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 12:41:54 PM »
I would be wary. And doublecheck everything. The website is of a type that does not inspire confidence. Something about it smells a bit like our late “Archbishop.” In the obsession with apostolic succession.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 04:32:30 PM »
A good source for all things Lutheran is http://www.pastorzip.org/uslutheranlinx.html


The "Lutheran Orthodox Church" is near the bottom - as part of the "Evangelical-Catholic" group. His paraphraph:


The Lutheran Orthodox Church formerly aka "The Catholic Church-Lutheran Rite

"This "Evangelical Catholic" church organized in 2004 when several Bishops of the Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church were consecrated into Apostolic Succession. Part of the formation of the Augustana Evangelical Catholic Communion (above), it quickly resigned and began to ordain women as priests and bishops. Contrary to most Lutherans it has an emphasis on the "Rapture" and Christ's imminent return. The LOC has since reconciled its communion fellowship with the LEPCand it is also in communion with the AIELC. It also has congregations in India, Sri Lanka, and the Philippines
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 04:37:52 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Charles Austin

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 04:52:24 PM »
I would want to know how these bishops were educated, who ordained them in “apostolic succession” and other things about their parishes.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 05:16:50 PM by Charles Austin »
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Mike Bennett

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 05:11:47 PM »
A good source for all things Lutheran is http://www.pastorzip.org/uslutheranlinx.html

I had not thought to look there, but should have. My goodness, there are a bunch of bodies with “Lutheran” in their name.
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

David Garner

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2018, 08:59:23 AM »
Founded in 2004?

So basically a small bunch of sectarian Lutherans playing church. Adorable, but I much prefer real Lutherans. The Confessions do not speak against apostolic succession as such, but certainly make the (reasonable) case that the abuse of bishops in the West render it insufficient to guard the faith and therefore unapostolic. I disagree of course, but it is a reasonable case.

That being the case, one wonders why any Lutheran body would find apostolic succession desirous. Based on the little I’ve read of this group, I’ll wager it isn’t because they find the arguments in favor of it compelling. After all, they could easily join a group that already has it.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Pr. Terry Culler

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2018, 01:33:58 PM »
The ELCA now sees its clergy as being in apostolic succession as per its agreement with the Episcopalians.  I believe the church in Sweden also claims such status.  I suspect this group claims this because someone was ordained by a bishop of the Old Catholic Communion which seems to ordain just about anyone who wants to be so.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2018, 03:00:52 PM »
No, we are not in apostolic succession in the traditional use of that term. It is agreed that we possess the “historic episcopate” in sufficient measure to satisfy the Episcopal Church that our ordained ministries are “valid” in their eyes.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2018, 04:26:51 PM »
No, we are not in apostolic succession in the traditional use of that term. It is agreed that we possess the “historic episcopate” in sufficient measure to satisfy the Episcopal Church that our ordained ministries are “valid” in their eyes.


As I remember from my seminary days - long before the agreement with the Episcopal Church - we have always been in "apostolic succession" - that is, we continue to teach what the apostles taught. What we didn't have was the visible sign of that succession through the "historical episcopate". This practice, from the fourth century required at least three bishop (in the historic episcopate) to ordain each new bishop; and, all ordination of priests, clergy, etc. are done by bishops. Note: the "historic episcopate" is about our bishops, not our clergy. Even though a bishop didn't officiate at my ordination, I am now able to preside at the table in an Episcopal Church. This was a major concession on their part to enter into our full-communion agreement.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pr. Terry Culler

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2018, 04:29:10 PM »
I apologize for my poor understanding of the ELCA situation.  But isn't it still much of a muchness if there are rules dictated by an agreement with some other institution? 
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Dave Benke

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2018, 06:17:28 PM »
a) It's interesting to take a peek at the Micro Lutheran Denominations in Pastor Zip's enumeration.  Lots of them are split off of the right edge, either in terms of things like women's voting privileges or kind of the liturgical/eccleisal right - ELDoNA comes to mind.  Many of them seem to me to be one generation denominations - when this generation of pastors retires, who's going to replace them? 
b) Which leads to Apostolic Succession.  Here's the Wikipedia article on the topic, with much to check out when it comes to Lutherans - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_succession.  Since the Apostles' Teaching is what's historically been at the heart of it for Lutherans, it's kind of difficult to get wound up over the other point of view, which is biological and ontological.  And yet many do.  Certainly it's a distinctive for the RCC.
It's one of those inside out things where Lutherans tend to think of it as adiaphora and extra-biblical and those with it, who are accused to adding to the biblical record with (oh, no) the traditions of the church catholic through history point to the Biblical record.  "You are Peter and upon this Rock" is right there in the Bible but we Lutherans interpret the Rock to be Apostolic Teaching based on his confession, even though the resultant gift of binding and loosing is given to Peter in the second person singular - that is to him personally - and not to all the disciples in that passage.  Am I wrong there?  That's the way it reads to me.  So we take our reading off of "They continued steadfast in the apostles' teaching and fellowship" in Acts.

Ecclesiology.  A soft spot, a weak spot, a chink in the Lutheran armor.

Dave Benke

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 10:07:14 AM »
I apologize for my poor understanding of the ELCA situation.  But isn't it still much of a muchness if there are rules dictated by an agreement with some other institution?


The "rule" about the ordination of bishops (the historic episcopate) comes from the Council of Nicaea in 325. We, perhaps, should wonder why Lutherans abandoned this practice after over a 1000 years of use.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RandyBosch

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2018, 10:47:46 AM »
I apologize for my poor understanding of the ELCA situation.  But isn't it still much of a muchness if there are rules dictated by an agreement with some other institution?


The "rule" about the ordination of bishops (the historic episcopate) comes from the Council of Nicaea in 325. We, perhaps, should wonder why Lutherans abandoned this practice after over a 1000 years of use.

Given the Lutheran predilection to reform that which has been abused, corrupted, mutated, et. al., perhaps most Lutherans abandoned this practice because of that -- decades, even centuries of abuse, corruption, mutation, et. al., and a desire to discuss and act upon ways to return the practice to its originally thought to be correct assignment and practice.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2018, 10:55:05 AM »
I apologize for my poor understanding of the ELCA situation.  But isn't it still much of a muchness if there are rules dictated by an agreement with some other institution?

The "rule" about the ordination of bishops (the historic episcopate) comes from the Council of Nicaea in 325. We, perhaps, should wonder why Lutherans abandoned this practice after over a 1000 years of use.

One needn't wonder.  Its rather basic European history.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Lutheran Orthodox Church?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2018, 11:06:09 AM »
I apologize for my poor understanding of the ELCA situation.  But isn't it still much of a muchness if there are rules dictated by an agreement with some other institution?


The "rule" about the ordination of bishops (the historic episcopate) comes from the Council of Nicaea in 325. We, perhaps, should wonder why Lutherans abandoned this practice after over a 1000 years of use.

Wasn't there a problem with getting bishops to ordain Lutherans?
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