Author Topic: Care of our Jewish Neighbors  (Read 5967 times)

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2018, 07:57:14 PM »
Close to our campus is Temple Har Zion, a conservative synagogue. We have a long history of being good neighbors.

Following the Tree of Life Synagogue tragedy, a senior University administrator and I paid a visit to our neighbors. Like all Jewish communities, they grieve the murders of human beings in Squirrel Hill. Yet they are keenly aware of their own vulnerability and the ever present shadow of antisemitism even in this affluent neighborhood.

I would urge others to visit their local synagogue and express your compassion and concern for them. The events of last Saturday affect our Jewish neighbors in profound ways no matter how far they are from the events of Saturday. They are our fellow citizens and an attack on them is an attack on all religious communities. I know that if a murderer slaughtered people in a Lutheran parish, the Rabbi and Kantor at Temple Har Zion would be over here to support us.

If this is the temple I am remembering, it has the words of Zechariah carved over the entrance for all the world to see:  Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord of hosts.

It does indeed.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2018, 08:03:25 PM »
I wonder what it says about us that a thread entitled "Care of our Jewish Neighbors" so quickly degenerated into the usual brick sniping at one another across church body lines?
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2018, 08:05:41 PM »

Of course, I could understand the Concordias, following the teachings of Martin Luther to be anti-semites but I would need to see studies that showed anti-semitism on secular college campuses.

You may not be familiar with confessional subscription. The LCMS unconditionally subscribes to the Book of Concord. The other writings of Luther are not included. Pr. Benke has downstream provided the LCMS response to Luther's troubling private writings.

When it comes to the LCMS, I am curious about something. Is insulting us (including the Concordias) something you work at or is it a gift that you have?


Having read what some have written about me and the ELCA and the pope and Roman Catholics, sometimes lex talionis happens.


Remember, I'm a product of the Concordias - an AA from Concordia Jr College, Portland. That's also where I met my wife of 47 years. Although, I've argued that the LCMS of 1969-1971 when I attended Concordia was a different church than it is today.
Did you notice endemic anti-Semitism at Portland as a student?  I do note that you seem willing to believe that current Concordias foster anti-Semitism without needing evidence.  But in the case of secular campuses you’d solid evidence to credit that.  Prejudiced any?


The secular schools do not have the connection with the anti-semitic Martin Luther like the Concordias do.


No, I did not notice anti-Semitism at Portland (and I am half Jewish). I also did not notice an anti-ALC bias at Portland (and I was ALC). We were in fellowship at the time. Do I experience an anti-ELCA bias now? From some, but not all LCMS folks.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2018, 08:08:42 PM »
I wonder what it says about us that a thread entitled "Care of our Jewish Neighbors" so quickly degenerated into the usual brick sniping at one another across church body lines?

You are right. I took the bait and I apologize. I should know better.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2018, 08:15:38 PM »
I have noticed that those two years, an unfortunate incident that her wife experienced and a number of disgruntled former visitors and members from a local  LCMS congregation has made him our resident LCMS expert, he knows the LCMS much better than those of us who’ve lived our entire lives in the LCMS.


You forgot the regular conversations with LCMS clergy friends - who were also quite saddened by the change they had seen in their LCMS. (Of course, they were trained and ordained prior to the "split" - so they were trained by those professors who were deemed questionable.) In fact, we had an LCMS clergy over for dinner a few months ago.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2018, 08:20:35 PM »
I have noticed that those two years, an unfortunate incident that her wife experienced and a number of disgruntled former visitors and members from a local  LCMS congregation has made him our resident LCMS expert, he knows the LCMS much better than those of us who’ve lived our entire lives in the LCMS.


You forgot the regular conversations with LCMS clergy friends - who were also quite saddened by the change they had seen in their LCMS. (Of course, they were trained and ordained prior to the "split" - so they were trained by those professors who were deemed questionable.) In fact, we had an LCMS clergy over for dinner a few months ago.

As our moderator reminds us, this thread is about "care of our Jewish neighbors."  I suggest you start a different thread for yet another ELCA/LCMS debate.

I am more curious about how others think we Lutherans can care for our Jewish neighbors than I am interested in rehashing constant antagonisms between those who claim to be Lutheran.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 09:33:41 PM by Daniel L. Gard »

pearson

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2018, 09:37:49 PM »

I am more curious about how others think we Lutherans can care for our Jewish neighbors I am interested in rehashing constant antagonisms between those who claim to be Lutheran.


I went to our granddaughters' public high school today to speak with their counselor (they're traveling and studying with us when I teach overseas next summer).  I turned the corner to go down a hallway and passed the open area of the cafeteria.  Hanging from the ceiling in front of the cafeteria was a large sign that quoted that Zecharaiah 4:6 passage, along with a painted message: "We love and pray for our Jewish friends."  At least I think it was the passage from Zechariah that was quoted; I was so gratified to see a scripture passage publicly displayed in a public high school that I'm not sure I paid close attention to the text itself.  But I think that was it.  And I pretty quickly felt I wanted to take that entire student body with me next summer.

Tom Pearson

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2018, 11:13:35 PM »
In the RCC Lectionary for Sunday, Nov. 4, the Gospel is Mark 12:28b-34, in which Jesus says that the Shema is the first of all the commandments. I plan to point out that Jesus probably said it every day, as observant Jews do even now, and go from there into solidarity, the profound sharing we have in belief in the one God, and so on.

I lived 16 years in Squirrel Hill, and the lady next door served three terms as president of New Light congregation, one of the three that was shot up last Sabbath. I dread the possibility that the shooter might turn out to have been a Catholic.

Peace,
Michael
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2018, 01:11:43 AM »
I wonder what it says about us that a thread entitled "Care of our Jewish Neighbors" so quickly degenerated into the usual brick sniping at one another across church body lines?

And notice who launched that train of thought.

 >:(
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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Charles Austin

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2018, 04:49:02 AM »
No, Steven, you are wrong.
The tone of this thread has an interesting history. Please observe.
   The drift began in Post #5, when Pastor Kirchner sniped at President Obama’s reference to how easy it is to get guns.That was immediately seconded by the Anonymous One.
   The next day, Pastor Kirchner lifted up a story about a man carrying a gun in a McDonalds who took down a masked shooter.
  So a temporary drift was immediately towards the gun issue, and started by Pastor Kirchner and the Anonymous One.
   Marie cited a response to the president visiting Pittsburgh and that was immediately blasted by Pastor Fienen who accused her of blaming all divisiveness on Trump (which she did not do). And Marie wonders again publicly why she even posts here.
   My simple question about LCMS statements opposing anti-Semitism was posted yesterday at 10:46 a.m. And it was only yesterday that Pastor Stoffregen wondered whether Luther’s influence on the Concordia campuses led to unpleasant things.
   Then I asked whether the LCMS had signed on to the LWF statement apologizing for Luther’s words. Brian asked the same question in a different way. Dave Benke posted the LCMS statement and I thanked him and commended the LCMS for the statement.
   Pastor Bohler posted – 20 minutes after my commendation of the LCMS – a snarky statement about the ELCA, and a few minutes after that Pastor Fienen posted a sarcastic shot: “…but you have to understand that such a statement cannot be real until the LWF makes it.  Our statement wasn't official because we weren't a part of the LWF.” (And no one had said or implied that.)
   I followed up with a reference to a Lutheran Council (U.S.A.) document on anti-Semitism that had involved the LCMS and Pastor Bohler jumped in again saying “So, why were you insinuating that the LCMS had not repudiated Luther's anti-Semitism by not signing the LWF document?” (And I had not insinuated that, and I posted the Lutheran Council reference as soon as I found it.)
   Then comes Pastor Fienen again - out of nowhere: “Pot shots at the LCMS, and assumptions that there is no decency about the typical LCMS person (holdovers from the Seminex period excepted) are a reflex action. Of course we must buy into Luther's anti-Semitic rants, we're LCMS, we're conservative so it just follows, no evidence required.”
   Therefore textual evidence shows that the thread drift towards what Richard called “sniping at one another across church body lines” did not begin with Brian, but with the usual edginess of certain LCMS posters who seem to like to say how “persecuted” they are by ELCA people here, even when the ELCA people her have not said anything about them and with the early on float-up of the issue of guns and who can get them, a favorite of certain ones here.
   So I fear the tone of the thread was muddied and honest concern for our Jewish neighbors completely lost in that frequent dynamic, which - I note again - did not begin with the ELCA posters here. (Although someone will now say that it did.)
   And then the discussion will morph intro sexuality and ordination for women, unless the Anonymous One, who favors guns, decides to take it that direction.
   BTW, Dr. Gard's postings here have been enlightening and helpful.


« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 04:59:01 AM by Charles Austin »
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2018, 07:19:45 AM »

   The drift began in Post #5, when Pastor Kirchner sniped at President Obama’s reference to how easy it is to get guns.That was immediately seconded by the Anonymous One.
   The next day, Pastor Kirchner lifted up a story about a man carrying a gun in a McDonalds who took down a masked shooter.
  So a temporary drift was immediately towards the gun issue, and started by Pastor Kirchner and the Anonymous One.

Flummery.

The "gun issue," relevant to "Israel's recent response to terrorism" versus Obama's view and public comment after the Pittsburgh attack certainly did not initiate "the usual brick sniping at one another across church body lines."


Israel's recent response to terrorism was to make it easier for good guys to carry guns:

Many citizens have saved lives during terror attacks, and in the era of ‘lone-wolf’ attacks, the more qualified gun-carrying citizens there are, the better the chance to stop terror attacks without casualties and reduce the number of casualties.

Contrast this with Obama's comment on the Pittsburgh attack. "And we have to stop making it so easy for those who want to harm the innocent to get their hands on m a gun."

How you conclude that "a temporary drift was immediately towards the gun issue" [emphasis in original] initiates "the usual brick sniping at one another across church body lines" is puzzling.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 08:17:54 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Terry W Culler

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2018, 09:00:12 AM »
Frankly most Antisemitism  in this country is found on college campuses and has its well spring in the ideas of the radical left.
Really? Most people in this country aren't found on college campuses! Are you referring to some study that says that antisemitism is directly proportional to higher education, or something to that effect? If so, I'd like to see it.

Peace,
Michael

The word "most" is possibly hyperbole.  But if you Google antisemitism in American universities you get a number of articles from the ADL, USA Today, etc. on this issue.  It frequently appears in relation to Israel, but the anti-Israel oratory quickly degenerates into antisemitism.  In one university male Jewish students were advised to wear hats over their yarmulkes.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2018, 09:02:26 AM »
Read the whole posting, Pastor Kirchner. The gun issue was a temporary drift, the sniping at church bodies drift came later and it’s documented as to how it began.
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2018, 09:06:52 AM »
Read the whole posting, Pastor Kirchner. The gun issue was a temporary drift, the sniping at church bodies drift came later and it’s documented as to how it began.

Agreed, the latter as documented by Pastor Tibbetts.
Don Kirchner

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2018, 10:28:12 AM »
No, Steven attributed the drift to one direction, when a reading of the postings shows the drift came from another direction.
Carry on.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.