Author Topic: Care of our Jewish Neighbors  (Read 5968 times)

John_Hannah

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2018, 04:18:27 PM »
A statement from the Lutheran Council, USA, was issued in 1971, at a time on the LCMS was part of the Lutheran council.

It seems to me that there have been at least 100 disclaimers of "Luther on the Jews" by every kind of American Lutheran ever created by God or man over these last 30-40 years. It should be clear to anyone concerned.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dan Fienen

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2018, 04:47:32 PM »
Pot shots at the LCMS, and assumptions that there is no decency about the typical LCMS person (holdovers from the Seminex period excepted) are a reflex action.  Of course we must buy into Luther's anti-Semitic rants, we're LCMS, we're conservative so it just follows, no evidence required.
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Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2018, 05:25:58 PM »
Close to our campus is Temple Har Zion, a conservative synagogue. We have a long history of being good neighbors.

Following the Tree of Life Synagogue tragedy, a senior University administrator and I paid a visit to our neighbors. Like all Jewish communities, they grieve the murders of human beings in Squirrel Hill. Yet they are keenly aware of their own vulnerability and the ever present shadow of antisemitism even in this affluent neighborhood.

I would urge others to visit their local synagogue and express your compassion and concern for them. The events of last Saturday affect our Jewish neighbors in profound ways no matter how far they are from the events of Saturday. They are our fellow citizens and an attack on them is an attack on all religious communities. I know that if a murderer slaughtered people in a Lutheran parish, the Rabbi and Kantor at Temple Har Zion would be over here to support us.

mj4

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2018, 05:45:10 PM »
Brian, could you offer some evidence of our Concordia University System promoting anti Semitism, or is it enough that they are conservative Lutheran to convict?


It depends on how much of Luther's anti-semitism is retained by conservative Lutherans. Has the LCMS distanced themselves from Luther's anti-Judaic diatribes as the ELCA has done?


http://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Declaration_Of_The_ELCA_To_The_Jewish_Community.pdf


We have seen in this forum some folks continue Luther's legacy of calling the pope the anti-christ.

Before we in the ELCA climb up onto our high horse, we should acknowledge that we are not uniformly regarded in the Jewish community. The anti-Jewish statements of Luther have been rejected, but our one-sided approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a source of consternation for many in the Jewish community. Is the decidedly pro-Palestinian leaning of the ELCA another form of anti-semitism? It is certainly viewed that way by some.

https://www.newsweek.com/why-are-lutherans-attacking-israel-again-491119

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2018, 05:50:43 PM »
Brian, could you offer some evidence of our Concordia University System promoting anti Semitism, or is it enough that they are conservative Lutheran to convict?


It depends on how much of Luther's anti-semitism is retained by conservative Lutherans. Has the LCMS distanced themselves from Luther's anti-Judaic diatribes as the ELCA has done?


http://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Declaration_Of_The_ELCA_To_The_Jewish_Community.pdf


We have seen in this forum some folks continue Luther's legacy of calling the pope the anti-christ.

Before we in the ELCA climb up onto our high horse, we should acknowledge that we are not uniformly regarded in the Jewish community. The anti-Jewish statements of Luther have been rejected, but our one-sided approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a source of consternation for many in the Jewish community. Is the decidedly pro-Palestinian leaning of the ELCA another form of anti-semitism? It is certainly viewed that way by some.

https://www.newsweek.com/why-are-lutherans-attacking-israel-again-491119

I have been in the uncomfortable position of having to explain that the ELCA and the LCMS are not the same Lutherans.

Charles Austin

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2018, 06:06:54 PM »
Would you guys relax? I am implying  nothing about the LCMS; I was asking a question. And when they were answered, I commended you.
There is no pot shot; there is no suggestion that you are buying into Luther’s rants.
And let it be noted , that some of the criticism aimed at the ELCA in Recent years has to do with our criticism of Israel, which is something quite different. Being critical of Israel’s policy is not being anti-Semitic, although Some contend that it is. That is nonesense.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.

Charles Austin

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2018, 06:09:42 PM »
Dr. Gard writes:
I have been in the uncomfortable position of having to explain that the ELCA and the LCMS are not the same Lutherans.
I comment:
Me, too.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. When the nation is troubled, the patriot depends on the Constitution. The opportunistic traitor tries to dump or ignore the Constitution.

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2018, 06:18:54 PM »
Dr. Gard writes:
I have been in the uncomfortable position of having to explain that the ELCA and the LCMS are not the same Lutherans.
I comment:
Me, too.

No doubt. But for very different reasons.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2018, 06:50:03 PM »

Of course, I could understand the Concordias, following the teachings of Martin Luther to be anti-semites but I would need to see studies that showed anti-semitism on secular college campuses.

You may not be familiar with confessional subscription. The LCMS unconditionally subscribes to the Book of Concord. The other writings of Luther are not included. Pr. Benke has downstream provided the LCMS response to Luther's troubling private writings.

When it comes to the LCMS, I am curious about something. Is insulting us (including the Concordias) something you work at or is it a gift that you have?


Having read what some have written about me and the ELCA and the pope and Roman Catholics, sometimes lex talionis happens.


Remember, I'm a product of the Concordias - an AA from Concordia Jr College, Portland. That's also where I met my wife of 47 years. Although, I've argued that the LCMS of 1969-1971 when I attended Concordia was a different church than it is today.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 06:53:46 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

mj4

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2018, 06:57:17 PM »
Being critical of Israel’s policy is not being anti-Semitic, although Some contend that it is. That is nonesense.

In order to dissuade the critics, you’ll need to explain why of all the nations of the world in some sort of conflict, the ELCA has singled out Israel for censure. Feel free to start another thread.

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2018, 07:14:24 PM »


Remember, I'm a product of the Concordias - an AA from Concordia Jr College, Portland. That's also where I met my wife of 47 years. Although, I've argued that the LCMS of 1969-1971 when I attended Concordia was a different church than it is today.

Remember also that I am the product of a LCA college (now ELCA): Carthage College, B.A. 1975. I know that the LCA was a different church than the ELCA is today. Thus, I would not assume that my experiences over 40 years ago at Carthage should in any way shape my view of the ELCA in 2018.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2018, 07:19:30 PM »

Of course, I could understand the Concordias, following the teachings of Martin Luther to be anti-semites but I would need to see studies that showed anti-semitism on secular college campuses.

You may not be familiar with confessional subscription. The LCMS unconditionally subscribes to the Book of Concord. The other writings of Luther are not included. Pr. Benke has downstream provided the LCMS response to Luther's troubling private writings.

When it comes to the LCMS, I am curious about something. Is insulting us (including the Concordias) something you work at or is it a gift that you have?


Having read what some have written about me and the ELCA and the pope and Roman Catholics, sometimes lex talionis happens.


Remember, I'm a product of the Concordias - an AA from Concordia Jr College, Portland. That's also where I met my wife of 47 years. Although, I've argued that the LCMS of 1969-1971 when I attended Concordia was a different church than it is today.
Did you notice endemic anti-Semitism at Portland as a student?  I do note that you seem willing to believe that current Concordias foster anti-Semitism without needing evidence.  But in the case of secular campuses you’d solid evidence to credit that.  Prejudiced any?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #57 on: October 30, 2018, 07:29:25 PM »

Of course, I could understand the Concordias, following the teachings of Martin Luther to be anti-semites but I would need to see studies that showed anti-semitism on secular college campuses.

You may not be familiar with confessional subscription. The LCMS unconditionally subscribes to the Book of Concord. The other writings of Luther are not included. Pr. Benke has downstream provided the LCMS response to Luther's troubling private writings.

When it comes to the LCMS, I am curious about something. Is insulting us (including the Concordias) something you work at or is it a gift that you have?


Having read what some have written about me and the ELCA and the pope and Roman Catholics, sometimes lex talionis happens.


Remember, I'm a product of the Concordias - an AA from Concordia Jr College, Portland. That's also where I met my wife of 47 years. Although, I've argued that the LCMS of 1969-1971 when I attended Concordia was a different church than it is today.
Did you notice endemic anti-Semitism at Portland as a student?  I do note that you seem willing to believe that current Concordias foster anti-Semitism without needing evidence.  But in the case of secular campuses you’d solid evidence to credit that.  Prejudiced any?

The amazing thing is that he cannot recognize his own bigotry towards the LCMS. His expertise comes from two years at Portland nearly 50 years ago.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 07:31:59 PM by Daniel L. Gard »

Dan Fienen

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2018, 07:33:53 PM »
I have noticed that those two years, an unfortunate incident that her wife experienced and a number of disgruntled former visitors and members from a local  LCMS congregation has made him our resident LCMS expert, he knows the LCMS much better than those of us who’ve lived our entire lives in the LCMS.
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J.L. Precup

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Re: Care of our Jewish Neighbors
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2018, 07:53:06 PM »
Close to our campus is Temple Har Zion, a conservative synagogue. We have a long history of being good neighbors.

Following the Tree of Life Synagogue tragedy, a senior University administrator and I paid a visit to our neighbors. Like all Jewish communities, they grieve the murders of human beings in Squirrel Hill. Yet they are keenly aware of their own vulnerability and the ever present shadow of antisemitism even in this affluent neighborhood.

I would urge others to visit their local synagogue and express your compassion and concern for them. The events of last Saturday affect our Jewish neighbors in profound ways no matter how far they are from the events of Saturday. They are our fellow citizens and an attack on them is an attack on all religious communities. I know that if a murderer slaughtered people in a Lutheran parish, the Rabbi and Kantor at Temple Har Zion would be over here to support us.

If this is the temple I am remembering, it has the words of Zechariah carved over the entrance for all the world to see:  Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord of hosts.
Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch, or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous; and all for your love's sake. Amen.