Author Topic: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest  (Read 7965 times)

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2018, 01:26:28 PM »
I don't have my ole Episcopal and Anglican texts anymore...   

but if Rite II begins something like this:
Jesus is Resurrection and Life
and the Rite I begins something like this:
Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life

does it necessarily mean without the definite article that he is less definitely or only one of several forms/person of Resurrection and Life?  I don't think so.

if we say that Jesus is forgiveness and life... that is quite an ordinary and OK statement without an article before forgiveness even though theologically forgiveness in Christ is the only one that counts. 
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peter_speckhard

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2018, 04:17:37 PM »
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke

Add my thanks.

Marie Meyer

When it comes to John McCain all I have to go on are his words and actions. Those very things have never indicated to me a man who greatly valued Jesus of Nazareth; his way, his work.

If anything he was a faithful disciple of American civil religion, so much so that he almost gave up his life for it.  This is honorable in its own right, without a doubt. 

But these hagiographies that keep spilling out from the media are greatly misleading and cover over a rather typical career in Washington full of saying one thing and doing another.  His persona as a maverick was indicative of this.  He voted with Trump 83% of the time and voted for all of his nominees.  He was always ready and willing to bomb the crap out of any place for the sake of democracy and human rights all the while supporting regimes that were against democracy and huge human rights’ violators.  Saudia Arabia being but one example. 

If you want to know why Trump is the president look no further than a politician like John McCain and all the fanfare from the media that claims he was so great and honorable. He is a great representation of the establishment that so many were and are tired of. 

Former President Jimmy Carter once said that John McCain was a warmonger.  I believe he was accurate in this.  The things he said and did, the way he voted, indicate this much. His death does not somehow change that, no matter how much some might claim otherwise.

In Christ,
Scott+
McCain did indeed represent the kind of politics that uses the idea of being above the fray as a weapon in the fray. I think his kind of politics pushed the electorate toward the Tea Party and now the Democratic Socialists, i.e. the extremes. The extremes are far more honest and meaningful, if far less polished and civil.

Oddly enough, McCain is the only politician I ever volunteered my time for. I never had much use for him politically, but thought the pro-life cause would be set back a lot by an Obama presidency. McCain was pro-life when it suited his goals, but really the only thing that made me think there would be any difference was the presence of Palin on the ticket. But I see she also was dis-invited from the funeral. McCain later said he wished he would have a chosen Joe Lieberman to be his running mate. Now try this for an intellectual exercise-- write a campaign commercial showing why it would be in the least bit important that a McCain/Lieberman ticket defeat an Obama/Biden ticket in 2008. How would the country be better off, heck, what would even be discernibly different today? Nothing relevant I can think of. Certainly I wouldn't have wasted three October Saturdays working for either ticket. And that is the point-- why would anyone? If asked why they bothered to support the GOP, the typical Republican in 2008 could only ever muster some vague, rhetorical equivalent of, "Because the R-belly sneeches have R's upon thars."   

Another interesting mental exercise is to consider how very little political contorting Hillary Clinton would have had to have done to be on the ticket with either McCain or Obama. Running against Obama in the '08 primaries she sounded almost exactly like a McCain/Lieberman ticket would sound. And running against Trump in '16 she sounded like she'd been on an Obama/Clinton ticket all along. Or think of it this way; if McCain ran with Lieberman and Obama ran with Biden, and then they decided to switch running mates, would anyone notice that suddenly it was McCain/Biden and Obama/Lieberman? Could Lieberman and Biden make their own ticket and run against Obama/McCain? 

So be it. I'm not saying centrists and career politicians can't do a competent job of managing the government. But in order to get elected without being open and up front about the fact that their own career is their platform (which would be a political liability indeed) they have to campaign as though it matters somehow that they and not the other guy win the election. But when it repeatedly turns out afterward that it likely didn't make one whit of difference that they and not the other guy won, the people who are actually passionate about the issues that always get campaigned on but never get governed on decide enough is enough. That has or is happening to both parties.

I doubt I'll ever volunteer for a campaign again, at least not a national campaign. In fact, the How to Think Like an Economist course from the Teaching Company makes the point that even bothering to vote is an irrational choice considered economically. That is, the amount of time and energy it takes even to fill out a ballot almost certainly exceeds the expected value of that vote. I'll still vote because I think I have a duty to do so, but I won't donate or volunteer; I have no such obligation. The thing is, you aren't working, and donating, and voting for a candidate; you're working, donating, and voting for the difference between that candidate and the other candidates on the ballot. That is where all the passion rightfully belongs.

I know a guy who considered running for congress this year. He is a centrist/moderate who was alarmed by the rise of Trump and thought it was time to do something concrete about it rather than join the chorus of griping about it. But an exploratory committee concluded he needed either more money or more name recognition/connections (for fund-raising appeal) to have a legitimate shot of winning. I don't think the issue is just money. A lot of the upsets on both Right and Left have been by people who were vastly outspent. The problem is that if you're going to run as a competent, moderate centrist, you'd better be running against a group of absolute lunatics if you want anyone in your district to think it would matter whether you or the other guy got elected. If your campaign is based on, "I'd be a good congressman, slightly better than my friend from across the aisle," well, people might vote for you, but in Chesterton's words, people aren't going to "go clad in gold and crimson for that." They aren't going to put themselves out there, go the extra mile, and really sweat to make sure the imperceptibly more competent candidate wins. They will for Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. They will for the Tea Party. If they see a potential difference concerning something they have genuine passion for, they might go door to door trying to make it happen. 

I have no doubt John McCain was a brave and honorable soldier and have no reason to think he wasn't a decent and honorable man. So are tons of people. It was as a politician that I knew him, and as a politician I will probably always remember him as the guy whose wishy-washiness and self-serving machinations cured me of caring so much. He's the only candidate I ever went clad in gold and crimson for, so to speak, by donating my days off to the effort to elect him, but he was embarrassed by people like me and didn't really care about the policies I was/am passionate about. In short, he was making a fool of me. Oh well. Lesson learned. I still care about politics. I won't volunteer for national campaigns; once was enough, and anyway all the stuff they had me doing-- delivering doorknob hangers, sorting mailings, making cold calls-- was stuff I find annoying when anyone does to me. But I'll still vote. Hopefully not for politicians like McCain, but at his funeral may the memory of the soldier and citizen outshine the politician.         
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 11:49:21 PM by peter_speckhard »

Mark Brown

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2018, 04:43:13 PM »
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.

This is correct. Rite I, on the other hand, retains the definite article. Go to the Pastoral Offices and compare Burial of the Dead: Rite One with Burial of the Dead: Rite Two.

https://www.bcponline.org/

I don't know the reason for the change, but some people don't like Rite II for changes like this. I don't have an opinion about it.

Rite 2 stems from a 1976 update that only gave the committee 6 hours to approve or edit the whole "Pastoral Rites" section.  They got up to Rite 2 when time ran out.  It was eventually rolled into the 1979 update to the BCP.  Funny, over on Twitter there is an Episcopal Priest arguing against a bodily resurrection as a fundamentalist figment.  One of the arguers against him is a VP of the LCMS.  I guess the definite article does have meaning.  Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.   

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2018, 05:56:01 PM »
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.

This is correct. Rite I, on the other hand, retains the definite article. Go to the Pastoral Offices and compare Burial of the Dead: Rite One with Burial of the Dead: Rite Two.

https://www.bcponline.org/

I don't know the reason for the change, but some people don't like Rite II for changes like this. I don't have an opinion about it.

Rite 2 stems from a 1976 update that only gave the committee 6 hours to approve or edit the whole "Pastoral Rites" section.  They got up to Rite 2 when time ran out.  It was eventually rolled into the 1979 update to the BCP.  Funny, over on Twitter there is an Episcopal Priest arguing against a bodily resurrection as a fundamentalist figment.  One of the arguers against him is a VP of the LCMS.  I guess the definite article does have meaning.  Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.   

I attended an Episcopal school during the late 70’s. It had an interesting religious culture. Our headmaster was from the Church of England, The chaplain was a Connecticut liberal. He wore a tweed coat with leather patches, and bow tie, of course. I remember him throwing a bible into a wall during a religion class. His point was to demystify the bible for us. I suppose he thought it would knock the reverence for the scriptures out of us. It had the opposite effect on me. The daily chapel services were a hodgepodge of the ’28 Prayer Book, the green Proposed Prayer Book, and photo copies of camp songs. Young Life was the most active Christian group on campus. The diocese was heavily influenced by the Charismatic Movement. Quite a time.

The church was transitioning out of “the Republican Party at prayer” faith of Gerald Ford, HW, and John McCain and into something … different.

By the way, the term “fundamentalism” is weaponized in the Episcopal Church. It’s meant to hurt and extinguish opposition. Marginalization at its finest.

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2018, 08:46:50 PM »
Peter, I too have trouble with all politics and flags and national anthems.  I wonder about a man who professes faith and has Danny Boy and Frank Sinatra as his funeral hymn choices.  But then again, my fellow pew sitters (now that I am retired) are not as holy, pious, and theologically astute as I used to think I was from time to time.  I used to get hints at weddings and funerals and if I kept my mouth shut longer than I wanted to and my ears open during Bible Classes there were indicators.  We evaluate that we have lost lots of ground but then sometimes I think we did not hold as much high ground with as many as we thought.  We run into a few indefatigable, humble, generous and gifted souls but the general population of those of us who will be dragged screaming and grumbling into heaven (extremely loose Lewis quotation) are not nice but forgiven creatures. 
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Dave Likeness

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2018, 01:25:23 PM »
The focus of a Christian Funeral is on what Jesus Christ, the Son of God has done for us.
He died on the cross and shed His blood to forgive our sins and reconcile us with God.
He rose from the grave to conquer death and give eternal life in heaven to all who believe in Him.

The focus of the Political Rally  was on what John McCain had done for his country.
Yet, John McCain will not get to heaven because he was a P.O.W.
He will not get to heaven because he was a U.S.Senator from Arizona.
Yes, he served and sacrificed for his country in wartime.  However, John McCain will only get
to heaven through faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Dan Fienen

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2018, 05:40:55 PM »

Mollie Tibbetts' father has pleaded that her death not be exploited to further positions on the immigration debate.  It may be true that her killer was here illegally and that with stricter controls he might not have been there to kill her and she would still be alive.  It is much less clear that his illegal status contributed to that death, or that stricter immigration controls would significantly reduce violent crime rates.  Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.


Sen. John McCain's daughter and others used his funeral to take veiled shots at Pres. Trump.  Was that any less deplorable to use his death and funeral to further political agendas or to take political shots at people that the senator, his family or friends disliked?  If it is deplorable for people to use Mollie Tibbetts to slam some people and score political points, why is it not also deplorable with Sen. McCain?


After the Parkland shootings and many others, those deaths were exploited to score political points and push a political agenda.  Was that acceptable in a way that politicizing the death of Mollie Tibbetts is not?


My point is not that politicizing Mollie Tibbetts should be acceptable, far from it.  I have great sympathy for her father.  My point is that it is not just the Right or Conservatives or Republicans who are doing this.  A single standard of not using tragedies or the deaths of loved ones as political fodder I think would be far superior to a double standard where some deaths and some tragedies that lend themselves to support for political causes are fair game for exploitation and others, on the other side are not.


Let us mourn John McCain and honor his life, his courage and service.  Cashing in his death to score cheap shots at political opponents, even those he himself opposed, in unworthy of him and of those who honor his memory.
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Charles Austin

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2018, 06:34:51 PM »
Pastor Fienen writes (Re Miss Tibbetts):
Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.

I comment:
I agree.

Pastor Fienen goes on:
Sen. John McCain's daughter and others used his funeral to take veiled shots at Pres. Trump.  Was that any less deplorable to use his death and funeral to further political agendas or to take political shots at people that the senator, his family or friends disliked?  If it is deplorable for people to use Mollie Tibbetts to slam some people and score political points, why is it not also deplorable with Sen. McCain?

I comment:
This is one time when the "yes-but-they-do-it-too" refrain from Pastor Fienen is wrong wrong wrong. Senator McCain was by choice a public figure. The shots at him were taken by a man running for the highest office in the land, in a way designed to further that man's career. There can be no comparison. None at all.

Pastor Fienen again:
After the Parkland shootings and many others, those deaths were exploited to score political points and push a political agenda.  Was that acceptable in a way that politicizing the death of Mollie Tibbetts is not?

Me again:
Yes, and it is deplorable that anyone would think otherwise.

Pastor Fienen:
A single standard of not using tragedies or the deaths of loved ones as political fodder I think would be far superior to a double standard where some deaths and some tragedies that lend themselves to support for political causes are fair game for exploitation and others, on the other side are not.
Me:
You cannot possibly be that naïve or really think that there is some "standard." But consider the cases based on what I cited upstream. One involves all public, political, civic figures. One does not. And the Parkland students killed were not brought into that by the man in the white house, but by their friends and families.

Pastor Fienen:
Cashing in his death to score cheap shots at political opponents, even those he himself opposed, in unworthy of him and of those who honor his memory.
Me:
Are you serious? Are you thinking? It is those who "honor his memory" who brought those words into the setting in order to - wait for it - honor his memory. And by they way, if you will think more carefully, as I am sure you are able of doing, they were hardly "cheap shots." They were eloquent, tearful, heartfelt, laments on the situation.
Want to hear a cheap shot? Listen to the man who said these words: "I like people who weren't captured." (or any of several hundred other blurtings and tweets).
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

Dan Fienen

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2018, 06:55:59 PM »

Perhaps I see your point, if Trump does it it is wrong, wrong, wrong.  If it is done against Trump or gun owners or advocates for defended boarders it is all meet, right and salutary, should even be mandatory.


Me:
You cannot possibly be that naïve or really think that there is some "standard." But consider the cases based on what I cited upstream. One involves all public, political, civic figures. One does not. And the Parkland students killed were not brought into that by the man in the white house, but by their friends and families.

Pastor Fienen:

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Charles Austin

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2018, 07:46:11 PM »
Pastor Fienen, that is one of the most offensive and ridiculous sashay, do-si-do and weasely dodges that I have ever encountered. You ignore the substance of what I posted and put on the tinfoil hat that lets you say "He hates Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if you wait more than 21 minutes (minus the time it takes you to read and minus the time it takes you to type) before you put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe and your own brain might give you something substantial to say about the subject.
Or do go a little more poetic and cosmic, didn't someone here recently cite John Donne's "No man is an island," which states that every death is - in a way - "political" or at least has an impact on the civil order. Would you object to a lawmaker who use the death of someone killed by a drunk driver as a reason for strengthening the laws about drinking and driving, or the death of an abused spouse becoming part of a campaign against domestic abuse?
Or (and here is what my knee-jerk reaction might have been) are you just so defensive of Trump that you can't bear to have him criticized in any way? Or are you such a mugwump, your claws firmly gripping the fence rail, that you just can't get to one side or the other?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 08:18:20 PM by Charles Austin »
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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2018, 08:01:43 PM »
Using her death to further a political agenda is in any case, deplorable.


I did a funeral for a 19-year old boy. One of the few things his divorced (and remarried) parents agreed on is that I should talk about the importance of wearing seatbelts. There son didn't. The driver of the car did. She had a sprained ankle. Is mentioning the importance of seat belts a political agenda? (For some it might be, like helmets for motorcyclists in some states - the government intruding into our lives and our freedoms.)


Our funeral liturgy includes this note (from the Leader's Edition) for after the Prayer of the Day and before the Scripture Readings:

The gathering may conclude with a time when relatives or associates of the deceased comment briefly in thanksgiving for and remembrance of the one who has died. These comments ought not overshadow the proclamation of the word of God that follows.
 
When family or friends speak, (if allowed,) we don't control what they might say. If there are such comments, I want them before the scriptures and sermon. I want the Word of God to have the last word.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2018, 09:51:28 PM »
Pastor Fienen, that is one of the most offensive and ridiculous sashay, do-si-do and weasely dodges that I have ever encountered. You ignore the substance of what I posted and put on the tinfoil hat that lets you say "He hates Trump and that's all there is to it."
Maybe if you wait more than 21 minutes (minus the time it takes you to read and minus the time it takes you to type) before you put the hat on, the Force Of The Universe and your own brain might give you something substantial to say about the subject.
Or do go a little more poetic and cosmic, didn't someone here recently cite John Donne's "No man is an island," which states that every death is - in a way - "political" or at least has an impact on the civil order. Would you object to a lawmaker who use the death of someone killed by a drunk driver as a reason for strengthening the laws about drinking and driving, or the death of an abused spouse becoming part of a campaign against domestic abuse?
Or (and here is what my knee-jerk reaction might have been) are you just so defensive of Trump that you can't bear to have him criticized in any way? Or are you such a mugwump, your claws firmly gripping the fence rail, that you just can't get to one side or the other?


I'm just grateful you didn't resort to name calling in your response.   ::)
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Dan Fienen

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2018, 11:00:35 PM »
Apparently, expressing disagreement with our local humble correspondent is seen not as an invitation for discussion but an opportunity for invective, insult and disdain.  He does it so much better than I, I’ll leave him to it.
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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2018, 03:23:49 AM »
Pastor Fienen, my post had five responses, some of them wordy, to your comment.
Your response was "Well, you just think if Trump does it, it's wrong," plus some sarcastic snark.
You call that "discussion"?
Note to Pastor Falk.
Nowhere in my response did I do any name-calling. I even said I thought Pastor Fienen was capable of a better answer than the one he gave. Perhaps you think I called him a mugwump, but careful reading of my comment shows that I did not do that, but that I wondered whether he might be guilty of mugwumpery.
And I make no apology for being forceful. Readers know where I stand and why I stand there. This is a time of great concern for the corruption, venality, incompetence, lies and assaults on our constitution and our freedoms coming from the highest office in our land.
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.
What I often find insulting and deficient in this modest forum is extended Terpsichorean toe-dances full of "on-the-one-side-on-the-other-side" or "yes, but..." or "doesn't everybody do it?".
But we digress.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2018, 09:14:28 AM »
Tell me what you think of the idea that the president (Executive Branch) wants the Attorney General (Judicial Branch) to direct criminal investigations according to their impact on a particular political party or candidate.

I think we begin by observing the the Attorney General is part of the Executive Branch, and that the AG works for the President of the United States and at his pleasure. 

The Judicial Branch is the Courts, which don't do criminal investigations.

The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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