Author Topic: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest  (Read 8226 times)

Eileen Smith

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2018, 04:05:53 PM »
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

loschwitz

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2018, 04:44:36 PM »
The event at the Cathedral was a political rally masquerading as a "memorial service." 

Dave Benke

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2018, 04:53:26 PM »
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2018, 05:35:56 PM »
Please look up a CNN story about McCain and his faith. He was a man of deep faith. That faith was tested and proven during his years of imprisonment.  According to the CNN story, he consistently refused to discuss it in anyway that could have been perceived as using it politically. Supposedly when he was imprisoned, he did not pray to be released, but he prayed that he be led to do the right thing. He and his prison mates were not allowed to have Bibles, so they did “Bible study“ by discussing versus if they had memorized or remember
 At yesterday‘s service in the Capitol rotunda, the benediction prayer closed with words something like this quote and we pray in the name of Jesus Christ who Senator McCain believed was his Savior.“
 I did not see much of the funeral today, as I am enjoying Minnesota’s lakes, but I do find much of the discussion upstream creepy. This is not “our“ funeral, it is his funeral. And who are we to say that it all to be conducted the way we would conduct a funeral? If there were kinder comments about the funeral upstream, I apologize for not seeing them before posting this. Reception in certain parts of the lake country is spotty.
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mariemeyer

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2018, 07:50:53 PM »
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke

Add my thanks.

Marie Meyer

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2018, 09:21:07 PM »
 That is indeed the article I cited just upstream.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

RevG

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2018, 09:45:56 PM »
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

Thanks for this link, Eileen - very helpful,

Dave Benke

Add my thanks.

Marie Meyer

When it comes to John McCain all I have to go on are his words and actions. Those very things have never indicated to me a man who greatly valued Jesus of Nazareth; his way, his work.

If anything he was a faithful disciple of American civil religion, so much so that he almost gave up his life for it.  This is honorable in its own right, without a doubt. 

But these hagiographies that keep spilling out from the media are greatly misleading and cover over a rather typical career in Washington full of saying one thing and doing another.  His persona as a maverick was indicative of this.  He voted with Trump 83% of the time and voted for all of his nominees.  He was always ready and willing to bomb the crap out of any place for the sake of democracy and human rights all the while supporting regimes that were against democracy and huge human rights’ violators.  Saudia Arabia being but one example. 

If you want to know why Trump is the president look no further than a politician like John McCain and all the fanfare from the media that claims he was so great and honorable. He is a great representation of the establishment that so many were and are tired of. 

Former President Jimmy Carter once said that John McCain was a warmonger.  I believe he was accurate in this.  The things he said and did, the way he voted, indicate this much. His death does not somehow change that, no matter how much some might claim otherwise.

In Christ,
Scott+

 

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2018, 10:14:32 PM »
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I read a few articles over the past year or so (since diagnosis) of John McCain's speaking about his faith and then saw the following article yesterday.  https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/30/politics/mccain-faith-service/index.html

That's helpful, thanks.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2018, 10:43:29 PM »
An interesting juxtaposition verging on a contradiction:

Today, the 1st day of September, is the Feast of the Indiction (beginning of the Ecclesiastical Year) in the Orthodox Church, and the commemoration of the very ascetic Symeon the Stylite who spent decades of his life atop a 60+ foot pillar. 

The texts for the Indiction have much to say about religion in public life and certainly provide an appropriate lens through which to consider the ceremonies at the National Cathedral.

Quote
Apolytikion of Beginning of the Indiction
Second Tone


Creator of the universe, setting times and seasons by Your sole authority, bless the cycle of the year of Your grace, O Lord, guarding our rulers and Your nation in peace, at the intercession of the Theotokos, and save us.

Kontakion of Beginning of the Indiction
Fourth Tone


You who created all things in Your infinite wisdom, and set the times by Your own authority, grant Your Christian people victories. Blessing our comings and goings throughout this year, guide our works according to Your divine will.

Prokeimenon. Mode 4.
Psalm 146.5;134.3

Great is our Lord, and great is his power.
Verse: Praise the Lord, for the Lord is good.


The reading is from St. Paul's First Letter to Timothy 2:1-7

Timothy, my son, first of all, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Gospel Reading Luke 4:16-22

At that time, Jesus came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." And all spoke well of him, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.

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Keith Falk

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2018, 10:49:48 PM »
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.
Rev. Keith Falk, STS

Dave Likeness

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2018, 11:04:03 PM »
@Harvey Mozolak........Today, the homily at the National Cathedral was delivered
by Father Edward A. Reese, S.J. He was listed in the official program for John McCain
funeral.

Mark Brown

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2018, 11:48:49 PM »
Just asking: Was McCain overtly a man of Christian faith? I don't recall ever hearing that about him. That would obviously be a factor in evaluating the "Christian" nature of the service he planned. The "national cathedral's" self-image allows for plenty of events that are more affairs of state than Christian worship.

I wish I could find the link, but there was a story about McCain's faith in the past week.  If I am remembering right he was raised Episcopalian which makes sense for his social background.  One of the vignettes about the article was how he still remembered and used quite often the liturgical calls and responses I think is being something of a chaplain when he was a POW.  In his later years he reportedly had membership(?)/attended when in town (?) (It was unlcear) a big mega-church place.  The article I read, if I remember right not in a conservative press, painted his faith as authentic but more like the reserved faith of his elders.  Which of course conflicted completely with the idea of joining mega-church evangelicalism which seems so un-McCain.

I saw this comment about the events today which seemed to have it about right. "The National Cathedral is a safe place for megachurch and guitar-mass American Christians to thrill at order and ceremony. It's safe because the object of worship is America, which deserves dignity and order, and not God, Who apparently prefers soft rock and emotional anarchy."

Mark Brown

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2018, 12:07:48 AM »
This wasn't the article I read, but it seems to copy(?) a whole bunch, or maybe the one I read copied from this, changing a couple of lines here and there.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2018/08/27/john-mccain-religion-beliefs-raised-episcopal-attended-baptist-church-prisoner-war-pow/1109643002/

Ah, here it is, from the RNS.

https://religionnews.com/2018/08/27/sen-john-mccain-known-as-a-veteran-but-also-a-man-of-quiet-faith/


Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2018, 09:04:53 AM »
thank you Dave, for the correction, I was wrong.
Harvey S. Mozolak
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Re: John McCain: an American hero is laid to rest
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2018, 12:19:31 PM »
My issue is not with the family, or even the they wished POTUS there or not. That was a family matter. ANd if Trump hasn't a clue why, after insulting a man who was brutalized and beaten for his country while he was attempting to avoid STDs because of his fornication, then he is short a few more tacos than even I had suspected.

The funeral went off the rails at the start when some representative of TEC  decided to declare that Jesus was "Resurrection and Life."

Nothing like lopping off definite articles found in the text to make everything so nice and inclusive. Maybe they should have gone with, "May the Force be with you."


My understanding is that Rite II in the BCP lops off the "the" in "resurrection and life"; at least, that's what I read elsewhere.  So it wasn't necessarily that priest or rep of the TEC, but the BCP itself.

This is correct. Rite I, on the other hand, retains the definite article. Go to the Pastoral Offices and compare Burial of the Dead: Rite One with Burial of the Dead: Rite Two.

https://www.bcponline.org/

I don't know the reason for the change, but some people don't like Rite II for changes like this. I don't have an opinion about it.