Author Topic: The end of the catholic church?  (Read 26491 times)

Eileen Smith

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #420 on: November 16, 2018, 03:48:57 PM »
Eileen writes:
It is arrogant at best to consider that 21st century theologians have more insight into scripture than the church fathers and the theologians who followed, passing to us the faith as it had been taught them.
I ask:
Why is it not arrogant to assume that 21st-century physicians know more than people of earlier times?
Or geographers?  Why are theologians expected to be tied to the views of people whose knowledge of the world and humanity existed hundreds of years ago?  And, Ive asked this before, did all of Gods revelation to us come to an end? And if so, on what date?

God is revealed to us in scripture.  The heart of scripture, the heart of God's revelation  - Jesus - hasn't changed.   It is not simply tradition but rather Tradition that has been handed down from the the apostles through the ages as a gift to the church in every time and place.  Unfortunately, a temptation -- that we too often give in to --  is to decide where we want to be and then craft God's word to get there.   

Dan Fienen

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #421 on: November 16, 2018, 04:02:20 PM »
Eileen writes:
It is arrogant at best to consider that 21st century theologians have more insight into scripture than the church fathers and the theologians who followed, passing to us the faith as it had been taught them.
I ask:
Why is it not arrogant to assume that 21st-century physicians know more than people of earlier times?
Or geographers?  Why are theologians expected to be tied to the views of people whose knowledge of the world and humanity existed hundreds of years ago?  And, Ive asked this before, did all of Gods revelation to us come to an end? And if so, on what date?

Why is it not arrogant to assume that 21st-century physicians know more than people of earlier times?  Because 21st-century physicians have new tools with which to explore the workings of the human body, and have built upon the discoveries into natural processes of their predecessors.  Still and all, the ancients (contrary to casual modern assumptions) were not stupid or even ignorant, just ancient.


At one time it was an old wives' tale and ancient herbal remedy that willow bark tea could do everything from relieve pain to bring down fever.  Eventually it was discovered that willow contains salicylate the major component of Aspirin.


We know more about a great many things, but not everything.  Also, we are as likely to bring our own contemporary cultural assumptions into our Biblical interpretation as the ancients were, perhaps even more so since we are much further down to line than they.
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #422 on: November 16, 2018, 04:27:44 PM »
Eileen writes:
It is arrogant at best to consider that 21st century theologians have more insight into scripture than the church fathers and the theologians who followed, passing to us the faith as it had been taught them.
I ask:
Why is it not arrogant to assume that 21st-century physicians know more than people of earlier times?
Or geographers?  Why are theologians expected to be tied to the views of people whose knowledge of the world and humanity existed hundreds of years ago?  And, Ive asked this before, did all of Gods revelation to us come to an end? And if so, on what date?

This is a Stoffregenian non sequitor certainly worthy of its namesake.  Eileen was talking about theologians, and you introduced other vocations which lack any noteworthy expertise on the subject.  Sure, certainly, Lutherans would not limit "theology" to just titled theologians.  But your suggestion that other vocations have superior knowledge is a naked assertion of power on your part, as you cannot show WHY that would be true, other than you might agree with them.  Yet you continue to be mystified why others have problems interacting with you.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 04:37:35 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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peter_speckhard

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #423 on: November 16, 2018, 05:00:34 PM »
Since the Industrial Revolution people face an almost overwhelming temptation to see progress in technology and corresponding progress in material standard of living as somehow analogous to progress in other areas of human life and civilization. But the analogy doesn't work.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #424 on: November 16, 2018, 05:07:50 PM »
Eileen writes:
It is arrogant at best to consider that 21st century theologians have more insight into scripture than the church fathers and the theologians who followed, passing to us the faith as it had been taught them.
I ask:
Why is it not arrogant to assume that 21st-century physicians know more than people of earlier times?
Or geographers?  Why are theologians expected to be tied to the views of people whose knowledge of the world and humanity existed hundreds of years ago?  And, Ive asked this before, did all of Gods revelation to us come to an end? And if so, on what date?

God is revealed to us in scripture.  The heart of scripture, the heart of God's revelation  - Jesus - hasn't changed.   It is not simply tradition but rather Tradition that has been handed down from the the apostles through the ages as a gift to the church in every time and place.  Unfortunately, a temptation -- that we too often give in to --  is to decide where we want to be and then craft God's word to get there.


Do you believe that the apostles and church fathers were influenced by the culture and knowledge of their times? (Consider Paul's statements about head coverings and hair length.)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #425 on: November 16, 2018, 05:09:40 PM »
Eileen is correct. It is arrogant to think that 21st century theologians now have the inside track to new revelations of God.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
In Holy Scriptures we have a changeless Christ for a changing world.   God's Word as revealed on the
pages of our Holy Bible is complete.  Those 66 books tells us all we need to know about our salvation in
Jesus Christ, the Son of God as well as the manner in which we are to live the Christian lifestyle according
to God's Will.


Does your wife cover her head when she goes out in public, or, especially in a worship service? When did that apostolic revelation cease to be a Christian lifestyle?
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #426 on: November 16, 2018, 05:13:33 PM »
Eileen writes:
It is arrogant at best to consider that 21st century theologians have more insight into scripture than the church fathers and the theologians who followed, passing to us the faith as it had been taught them.
I ask:
Why is it not arrogant to assume that 21st-century physicians know more than people of earlier times?
Or geographers?  Why are theologians expected to be tied to the views of people whose knowledge of the world and humanity existed hundreds of years ago?  And, Ive asked this before, did all of Gods revelation to us come to an end? And if so, on what date?

This is a Stoffregenian non sequitor certainly worthy of its namesake.  Eileen was talking about theologians, and you introduced other vocations which lack any noteworthy expertise on the subject.  Sure, certainly, Lutherans would not limit "theology" to just titled theologians.  But your suggestion that other vocations have superior knowledge is a naked assertion of power on your part, as you cannot show WHY that would be true, other than you might agree with them.  Yet you continue to be mystified why others have problems interacting with you.


As exegetes and theologians we certainly have much more information than the church fathers did. They didn't have the dead sea scrolls. They didn't have the aid of computers to search word usages throughout Greek documents. They didn't have thousands of manuscripts to compare. Folks today have a lot more data to use in making their decisions than even those early theologians.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #427 on: November 16, 2018, 05:16:32 PM »
Since the Industrial Revolution people face an almost overwhelming temptation to see progress in technology and corresponding progress in material standard of living as somehow analogous to progress in other areas of human life and civilization. But the analogy doesn't work.


Since the data revolution we do have much more data at our disposal in regards to life in the biblical world, access to ancient documents and their use of words, archeological discoveries, and the information they give us about the ancient world, etc.


It appears that the NT writers probably didn't have access to the Hebrew scriptures, but relied on the LXX.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #428 on: November 16, 2018, 06:15:00 PM »
should capitalization be added to the subject heading in naming what portion or all of Christendom is ending?
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Dan Fienen

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #429 on: November 16, 2018, 06:17:29 PM »
should capitalization be added to the subject heading in naming what portion or all of Christendom is ending?
Do you ever begin a sentence with a capital letter, or use them at all?
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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #430 on: November 16, 2018, 06:31:46 PM »
yes, sometimes, ...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 08:07:39 AM by Harvey_Mozolak »
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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #431 on: November 16, 2018, 06:36:14 PM »
Eileen writes:
It is arrogant at best to consider that 21st century theologians have more insight into scripture than the church fathers and the theologians who followed, passing to us the faith as it had been taught them.
I ask:
Why is it not arrogant to assume that 21st-century physicians know more than people of earlier times?
Or geographers?  Why are theologians expected to be tied to the views of people whose knowledge of the world and humanity existed hundreds of years ago?  And, Ive asked this before, did all of Gods revelation to us come to an end? And if so, on what date?

God is revealed to us in scripture.  The heart of scripture, the heart of God's revelation  - Jesus - hasn't changed.   It is not simply tradition but rather Tradition that has been handed down from the the apostles through the ages as a gift to the church in every time and place.  Unfortunately, a temptation -- that we too often give in to --  is to decide where we want to be and then craft God's word to get there.


Do you believe that the apostles and church fathers were influenced by the culture and knowledge of their times? (Consider Paul's statements about head coverings and hair length.)
There is a difference between speaking to and interacting with the culture and knowledge of the time and being influenced by them.  But of course in your fundamentalist literalistic interpretation there is no substantial difference between Paul affirming the O.T. Condemnation of homoerotic behavior and suggesting that proper respect be shown using the then current cultural practice of head covering.


Your understanding of inspiration and mine are very different.  Apparently in your understanding when Paul wrote against homoerotic behavior he was no more inspired than any other writer of his time and merely reflected the current culture.  (Sort of since as I understand it GreccoRoman culture was accepting of homoeroticism.). We must sort through the Bible and decide what in it is inspired and what we need to correct with our superior knowledge.
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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #432 on: November 16, 2018, 06:56:49 PM »
and unsolicited, but promised, not meant to rush the season, four verses from probably the 1970's:
(now deleted)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 08:07:07 AM by Harvey_Mozolak »
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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #433 on: November 16, 2018, 07:12:02 PM »

As exegetes and theologians we certainly have much more information than the church fathers did. They didn't have the dead sea scrolls. They didn't have the aid of computers to search word usages throughout Greek documents. They didn't have thousands of manuscripts to compare. Folks today have a lot more data to use in making their decisions than even those early theologians.

Data are not wisdom.

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The end of the catholic church?
« Reply #434 on: November 17, 2018, 01:02:41 AM »
There is a difference between speaking to and interacting with the culture and knowledge of the time and being influenced by them.  But of course in your fundamentalist literalistic interpretation there is no substantial difference between Paul affirming the O.T. Condemnation of homoerotic behavior and suggesting that proper respect be shown using the then current cultural practice of head covering.


The difference is that writers (even inspired ones) are influenced by their culture and the knowledge of their times; some recognize this, others do not. We see such influences in the differences in the Gospel writers. Much of the different language comes because they were influenced by their times/culture/audience.

Quote
Your understanding of inspiration and mine are very different.  Apparently in your understanding when Paul wrote against homoerotic behavior he was no more inspired than any other writer of his time and merely reflected the current culture.  (Sort of since as I understand it GreccoRoman culture was accepting of homoeroticism.). We must sort through the Bible and decide what in it is inspired and what we need to correct with our superior knowledge.


The entire Bible is inspired. I've said that numerous times. God has breathed his Spirit into these writings so that God's power comes to us through these words to create and nurture faith.


As I understand it, GrecoRoman culture understood proper sexual behaviors to be between a superior and an inferior: males are superior to females - sex between them was "natural"; free men are superior to slaves - sex between them (regardless if the slave was male or female) was "natural". What was unnatural was for a freeman to be in the position of a woman - to be the recipient of another freeman's sexual advances; or for a woman to be dominate and aggressive in sexual behaviors.


The OT commands include the unnecessary phrase "as with a woman". Just commanding a man not to lie with a male is sufficient to ban gay sex. The addition of "as with a woman" refers to treating a man as an inferior being. I've heard football coaches criticize players as "acting like a bunch of women". It's a put-down. Romans, I think, makes that same comment about what was considered "natural" and "unnatural" within that culture.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]