Author Topic: Celebrations of Life  (Read 9889 times)

gan ainm

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #90 on: August 01, 2018, 12:09:41 PM »
Rev. Mozolak and Rev. Stoffregen,

I am assuming that Rev. Culler has in mind the same thing Rev. Speckhard references in his Post #64: that while the sermon is for all, admission to the Sacrament is more limited/restricted.

My LCMS wife's words are available to all ... access to her body and blood is quite limited/restricted.   


You perhaps should rethink this slightly stomach-turning analogy.  Christ intends that his body and blood be available to all.  Your wife likely harbors no such intent.  Moreover, I suspect that your wife saves some of her words just for you and perhaps others just for God.  Those words are not available to all.[size=78%]  [/size]

Good point.  My LCMS wife's words are available to all who hear them ... access to her body and blood is quite limited/restricted.

I'm not quite sure why this is stomach-turning?  Words to all who hear?  Access by me and her doctors/dentists?  I was only trying to show the parallel with closed communion. 

James_Gale

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #91 on: August 01, 2018, 12:24:39 PM »
Rev. Mozolak and Rev. Stoffregen,

I am assuming that Rev. Culler has in mind the same thing Rev. Speckhard references in his Post #64: that while the sermon is for all, admission to the Sacrament is more limited/restricted.

My LCMS wife's words are available to all ... access to her body and blood is quite limited/restricted.   


You perhaps should rethink this slightly stomach-turning analogy.  Christ intends that his body and blood be available to all.  Your wife likely harbors no such intent.  Moreover, I suspect that your wife saves some of her words just for you and perhaps others just for God.  Those words are not available to all.[size=78%]  [/size]

Good point.  My LCMS wife's words are available to all who hear them ... access to her body and blood is quite limited/restricted.

I'm not quite sure why this is stomach-turning?  Words to all who hear?  Access by me and her doctors/dentists?  I was only trying to show the parallel with closed communion.


Christ yearns for all as one community to partake of his body and blood.  I am quite sure that your wife harbors no such yearning. 

gan ainm

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2018, 12:41:50 PM »
Rev. Mozolak and Rev. Stoffregen,

I am assuming that Rev. Culler has in mind the same thing Rev. Speckhard references in his Post #64: that while the sermon is for all, admission to the Sacrament is more limited/restricted.

My LCMS wife's words are available to all ... access to her body and blood is quite limited/restricted.   


You perhaps should rethink this slightly stomach-turning analogy.  Christ intends that his body and blood be available to all.  Your wife likely harbors no such intent.  Moreover, I suspect that your wife saves some of her words just for you and perhaps others just for God.  Those words are not available to all.[size=78%]  [/size]

Good point.  My LCMS wife's words are available to all who hear them ... access to her body and blood is quite limited/restricted.

I'm not quite sure why this is stomach-turning?  Words to all who hear?  Access by me and her doctors/dentists?  I was only trying to show the parallel with closed communion.


Christ yearns for all as one community to partake of his body and blood.  I am quite sure that your wife harbors no such yearning.

Correct, but analogies are not the whole real thing and almost always fall short in some way ... as you have pointed out. 

I would also say that the LCMS yearns for all to confess Christ and hear his Word ... however, we live in a fallen world and all do not receive Christ's gifts, confess Christ, or hear his Word, or repent of their sin, for reasons known only to Christ.   

Dave Benke

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2018, 01:55:43 PM »
Rev. Mozolak and Rev. Stoffregen,

I am assuming that Rev. Culler has in mind the same thing Rev. Speckhard references in his Post #64: that while the sermon is for all, admission to the Sacrament is more limited/restricted.


Having just had the miraculous feeding of the 5000 (John 6:1-21), I doubt that Jesus limited admission to this miracle meal. He didn't ask the folks for proof of their church membership or asked about their confession of faith before feeding them. (Note: John uses εὐχαριστήσας for Jesus' actions. The synoptics do not. John has the feeding as soon as Jesus sees the people, not after the people had been with them all day long and were hungry. Jesus' purpose, in John, seems to be something other than relieving the people's hunger after a day of not eating.)

In addition, since eating together is a sign of fellowship, why isn't the meal at the reception limited/restricted?

That's a good point, and goes to crowd estimation and turnstile modes of counting.  At the Mets game for instance they'll announce that the paid attendance is 28347.  This does NOT mean that 28347 people went through the turnstile.  15000 of them, let's say, having paid to come to the game, decided they might as well stay home rather than watch the Mets fall again.  Another one is epic magnification, as when our President determined that his was the best-attended inauguration ever, as opposed to video evidence to the contrary. 

Doesn't one of the feeding narratives list the number as 5000 men, plus women and children?  Is that the same event as one where the number 5000 was used, with the assumption that it was all-inclusive? 

So no, there were no turnstiles.  There was, in the narratives, orderly seating, so at least pretty accurate counting could be done, no?

What about Sunday mornings?  Are those numbers accurate, estimations, clicker-accomplished, or what?  The way people do it is basic - pretty full, nice crowd, kind of empty, lots of people missing today, etc.

Dave Benke

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2018, 02:18:46 PM »
After losing 25-4 to one of the most underperforming clubs in modern baseball history, Id stay home too.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2018, 02:39:09 PM »
Rev. Mozolak and Rev. Stoffregen,

I am assuming that Rev. Culler has in mind the same thing Rev. Speckhard references in his Post #64: that while the sermon is for all, admission to the Sacrament is more limited/restricted.


Having just had the miraculous feeding of the 5000 (John 6:1-21), I doubt that Jesus limited admission to this miracle meal. He didn't ask the folks for proof of their church membership or asked about their confession of faith before feeding them. (Note: John uses εὐχαριστήσας for Jesus' actions. The synoptics do not. John has the feeding as soon as Jesus sees the people, not after the people had been with them all day long and were hungry. Jesus' purpose, in John, seems to be something other than relieving the people's hunger after a day of not eating.)

In addition, since eating together is a sign of fellowship, why isn't the meal at the reception limited/restricted?

O great exegete, do you not perceive the difference between the Lord's Supper and a church potluck? 

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #96 on: August 01, 2018, 03:37:35 PM »
you wrote: do you not perceive the difference between the Lord's Supper and a church potluck?

surely you are not in any way equating the feeding of the thousands to a church potluck are you?

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Dan Fienen

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #97 on: August 01, 2018, 04:18:07 PM »
you wrote: do you not perceive the difference between the Lord's Supper and a church potluck?

surely you are not in any way equating the feeding of the thousands to a church potluck are you?

Are you equating the feeding of the thousands to a Sunday morning parish celebration of the Lord's Supper?
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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #98 on: August 01, 2018, 04:44:48 PM »
you wrote: do you not perceive the difference between the Lord's Supper and a church potluck?

surely you are not in any way equating the feeding of the thousands to a church potluck are you?

Are you equating the feeding of the thousands to a Sunday morning parish celebration of the Lord's Supper?

I believe that Jesus fed the 5,000 as a sign (foretaste) of the Supper he instituted later. He "took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them. . . ." (Jn 6:11)  Sound familiar? Then there is the miraculous nature of the feeding and our sacrament. Then right away there is Jesus defying natural laws on the sea in the storm, just as he does in the Eucharist.

So yes, it is not exactly equal but the feeding clearly points to the Lord's Supper we know.

Peace, JOHN

Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2018, 04:50:18 PM »
I believe that Jesus fed the 5,000 as a sign (foretaste) of the Supper he instituted later. He "took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them. . . ." (Jn 6:11)  Sound familiar? Then there is the miraculous nature of the feeding and our sacrament. Then right away there is Jesus defying natural laws on the sea in the storm, just as he does in the Eucharist.

So yes, it is not exactly equal but the feeding clearly points to the Lord's Supper we know.

Peace, JOHN

Aye.

Moreover:

1)  The feeding of the five thousand is the ONLY miracle recorded in all four Gospels.

2)  The only other congruency between all the Gospels is fact of (not the particular details, of) Jesus's death and resurrection.

3)  The Fourth Gospel adds the explicit notation to the feeding of the five thousand "now the Passover of the Jews was near".
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 04:52:03 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2018, 04:53:53 PM »
However, while there may be points of similarity, one point that Pr. Stoffregen was trying to make was that just as Jesus did not seem to restrict admission to His feeding of the thousands, so we should not restrict admission to our celebrations of the Lord's Supper.  Is the similarity between the two adequate to justify drawing that conclusion?  If so, why?
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #101 on: August 01, 2018, 04:59:34 PM »
you wrote: do you not perceive the difference between the Lord's Supper and a church potluck?

surely you are not in any way equating the feeding of the thousands to a church potluck are you?

Are you equating the feeding of the thousands to a Sunday morning parish celebration of the Lord's Supper?

I believe that Jesus fed the 5,000 as a sign (foretaste) of the Supper he instituted later. He "took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them. . . ." (Jn 6:11)  Sound familiar? Then there is the miraculous nature of the feeding and our sacrament. Then right away there is Jesus defying natural laws on the sea in the storm, just as he does in the Eucharist.

So yes, it is not exactly equal but the feeding clearly points to the Lord's Supper we know.

Peace, JOHN

Clearly points to the Lord's Supper?  It's not clear to me. 

Pilgrim

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2018, 05:16:18 PM »
Seriously?
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #103 on: August 01, 2018, 05:30:38 PM »
Seriously?

Seriously.  For example, the Lord's Supper is for the forgiveness of sins.  Did this feeding give the forgiveness of sins? 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 05:34:32 PM by Steven W Bohler »

Pilgrim

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Re: Celebrations of Life
« Reply #104 on: August 01, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
The Lord's Supper is for the forgiveness of sins and, and, and, and, and .... so much more that it is finally incomprehensible this side of eternity. The feeding points to the meal, unequivocally!
Pr. Tim Christ, STS