Author Topic: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?  (Read 93574 times)

Bill Timm

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2070 on: January 24, 2019, 09:39:14 PM »
Like many citizens, I've wondered and tried hard to understand why Trump has such a remarkable following. (It's obvious why he probably should not!) Then a friend sent me this raccoon story. It makes no difference about your political leanings, this is just a good explanation of WHY.
If you really want to know how the majority of people feel?
....................................
You've been on vacation for two weeks, you come home, and your basement is infested with raccoons. Hundreds of rabid, messy, mean raccoons have overtaken your basement. You want them gone immediately. You call the city, 4 different exterminators, but nobody can handle the job But there is this one guy and he guarantees you to get rid of them, so you hire him. You don't care if the guy smells, you don't care if the guy swears, you don't care if he's an alcoholic, you don't care how many times he's been married, you don't care if he has a plumber's crack, you simply want those raccoons gone! You want your problem fixed! He's the guy. He's the best. Period !
Here's why we want Trump, yes he's a bit of an ass, yes he's an egomaniac, but we don't care. The country is a mess because politicians suck, the Republicans and Democrats can be two-faced & gutless, and illegals are everywhere. We want it all fixed! We don't care that Trump is crude, we don't care that he insults people, we don't care that he has changed positions, we don't care that he's been married 3 times, we don't care that he fights with Megyn Kelly and Rosie O'Donnell, we don't care that he doesn't know the name of some Muslin terrorist.
This country is weak, bankrupt, our enemies are making fun of us, we are being invaded by illegals, we are becoming a nation of victims where every Tom, Ricardo, and Hasid is a special group with special rights to a point where we don't even recognize the country we were born and raised in; "AND WE JUST WANT IT FIXED" and Trump is the only guy who seems to understand what the people want.
We're sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, Republican Party, and sick of illegals. We just want this thing fixed. Trump may not be a saint, but he doesn't have lobbyist money holding him, he doesn't have political correctness restraining him, all you know is that he has been very successful, a good negotiator, he has built a lot of things, and he's also not a politician, he's not a cowardly politician. And he says he'll fix it, and we believe him because he is too much of an egotist to be proven wrong or looked at and called a liar. Also, we don't care if the guy has bad hair. We just want those raccoons gone, out of our house, NOW.
You are welcome to pass this on. I feel this is why thousands of people who haven't voted in 25 years are getting involved.
The raccoons have got to go.

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2071 on: January 24, 2019, 09:51:21 PM »
I can understand the major media rushing to judgment re the Covington high school students (what's not to hate they're mostly white & pro-life); but, why have bishops in the catholic church publicly condemned them?

Linda
I’m no mind reader, but I suspect their rush to judgement was in part a reaction to the on going priestly molestation scandal.  For too long they hid it and kept silent.  Perhaps they saw this as another potential black eye and tried to get ahead of it.  May explain it, but doesn’t excuse it.
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Charles Austin

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2072 on: January 24, 2019, 10:24:24 PM »
Bill Timm writes:
This country is weak, bankrupt,
I comment:
We are not.

Bill Timm writes
...our enemies are making fun of us....
I comment:
They are not, (at least they weren't until they met the president) and if they are, who cares....

Bill Timm writes:
...we are being invaded by illegals....
I comment:
We are not.

Bill Timm
...we are becoming a nation of victims where every Tom, Ricardo, and Hasid is a special group with special rights...
Me:
What "special" rights? Unfortunately some among us need to struggle for the "equal" rights they are supposed to have under our laws.

Bill Timm:
…. to a point where we don't even recognize the country we were born and raised in; "AND WE JUST WANT IT FIXED".....
Me:
Says who? I thought the country was becoming more what it is supposed to be; and the "country" I was born and raised in had some problems that needed fixing.

Bill Timm:
….and Trump is the only guy who seems to understand what the people want.
Me:
Well, not the more than 50 percent of our populace who did not vote for him.

Bill Timm:
We're sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, Republican Party, and sick of illegals. We just want this thing fixed.
Me:
Again, says who? And there is more than one "thing."

Bill Timm:
Trump may not be a saint, but he doesn't have lobbyist money holding him, he doesn't have political correctness restraining him, all you know is that he has been very successful, a good negotiator, he has built a lot of things, and he's also not a politician, he's not a cowardly politician.
Me:
He has plenty of lobbyist money around him; he has not been a successful negotiator, he has built things with other people's money and money he got through illicit means.

Bill Timm:
….we believe him because he is too much of an egotist to be proven wrong or looked at and called a liar....
Me:
We do not believe him and it is his egotism that forces him to lie and lie and lie and say he is not wrong when he is clearly wrong.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Bill Timm

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2073 on: January 24, 2019, 11:48:14 PM »
 So since walls are immortal  remove them all  starting in California and around Nancy Pelosi‘s house

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2074 on: January 24, 2019, 11:54:00 PM »
So since walls are immortal  remove them all  starting in California and around Nancy Pelosi‘s house
Perhaps those walls really are immortal and will never come down.
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Charles Austin

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2075 on: January 25, 2019, 04:57:34 AM »
I do not say that "walls" are immoral.
I do say that the "wall" currently under discussion is ineffective (that is, it will not do what it is intended to do), contrary to our nation's values, harmful to our neighbors, and potentially deadly to our neighbors who may be seeking our help as they flee war, death and oppression.

Once an English major, always an English major, I think of the Robert Frost (1874-1963) poem "Mending Wall"
The poet and his neighbor walk the stone wall separating their properties. The poet says
Something there is that doesn't love a wall
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.

Or hunters make holes in it "to please the yelping dogs."
His neighbor declares: "Good fences make good neighbours", but the poet ponders
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down." I could say "Elves" to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.

The poet concludes, having now seen the rocks for the wall as unnecessary weapons:, that his neighbor is mentally locked into a meaningless phrase.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbours."

I can see Frost walking away from the stones lining his New Hampshire farm and thinking, "We don't really need this wall."
I agree.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Eileen Smith

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2076 on: January 25, 2019, 08:27:53 AM »
I can understand the major media rushing to judgment re the Covington high school students (what's not to hate they're mostly white & pro-life); but, why have bishops in the catholic church publicly condemned them?

Linda
I’m no mind reader, but I suspect their rush to judgement was in part a reaction to the on going priestly molestation scandal.  For too long they hid it and kept silent.  Perhaps they saw this as another potential black eye and tried to get ahead of it.  May explain it, but doesn’t excuse it.

I always look forward to your posts - they are insightful and kind.  And here is a case where you are far more kind than I.  My first thought on reading Linda's post was that they boys were white with MAGA hats on.   

Coach-Rev

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2077 on: January 25, 2019, 08:39:49 AM »
I do not say that "walls" are immoral.

You are right.  But Nancy Pelosi did.  And she's the one currently stalling the POTUS shutdown, making it now hers.

Quote
I do say that the "wall" currently under discussion is ineffective (that is, it will not do what it is intended to do), contrary to our nation's values, harmful to our neighbors, and potentially deadly to our neighbors who may be seeking our help as they flee war, death and oppression.

And that is your OPINION on all fronts (ineffective, contrary to national values, harmful to neighbors, potentially deadly...), and there is evidence on both sides to support or deny your OPINION.  However, being on both sides, a good chunk of that evidence suggests you are in fact quite wrong.
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D. Engebretson

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2078 on: January 25, 2019, 09:00:57 AM »
As I watch this current budget impasse play out day after day I have to wonder: Is this the new normal?  Are the days when legitimate compromise was an art now gone and replaced with hard-line partisan standoffs? I get the issues that are at stake, but I also see a new game that is played when opposing parties control the reigns of government.  Circle the wagons.  Hunker down.  Don't move.  Always oppose what the other side proposes.  Can't get to far with this approach, and quite a few people well down the ladder suffer as pawns.  Oh, and I'm not going to propose my question by immediately siting blame for one side.  Both side are displaying the same approach.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2079 on: January 25, 2019, 11:06:08 AM »
I do not say that "walls" are immoral.
I do say that the "wall" currently under discussion is ineffective (that is, it will not do what it is intended to do), contrary to our nation's values, harmful to our neighbors, and potentially deadly to our neighbors who may be seeking our help as they flee war, death and oppression.

Once an English major, always an English major, I think of the Robert Frost (1874-1963) poem "Mending Wall"
The poet and his neighbor walk the stone wall separating their properties. The poet says
Something there is that doesn't love a wall

Even though I was not an English major (philosophy) I love the poetry of Robert Frost.  Sometimes, however, popular understanding misinterprets his poetry according to what he originally ment, as is the popular understanding of perhaps his most famous poem, "The Road Not Taken."

You didn't mention a significant section of "Mending Wall" in your discussion of it. 

There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.

Later, as you quoted, he suggested that some places there might be a need for walls:
"Why do they make good neighbours? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,


Frost's poem would especially apply if there were a suggestion to build a wall along the Canadian border.  A reasonable case has been made for the need for a wall/fence/whatever along the Southern Border.  You may not find the case convincing or compelling but there is a need to protect the border because there are some people trying to cross it for illegal purposes.  The question remains as to how important that reason is or how effective a wall will be, but Frost's poem really doesn't speak to that.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 11:17:36 AM by Dan Fienen »
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Charles Austin

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2080 on: January 25, 2019, 11:22:45 AM »
Leave it to a philosopher to totally miss the point made by poetry.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2081 on: January 25, 2019, 11:26:14 AM »
And what does the English major say is the point of the poem?
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2082 on: January 25, 2019, 11:28:58 AM »
And that is your OPINION on all fronts (ineffective, contrary to national values, harmful to neighbors, potentially deadly...), and there is evidence on both sides to support or deny your OPINION.  However, being on both sides, a good chunk of that evidence suggests you are in fact quite wrong.


There is evidence that walls don't work. Tunnels have been dug under them. Drugs are thrown over them. It's been demonstrated that a saw can cut through them. In addition, we have thousands of miles of ocean on our borders were there are no walls that can be reached by boats. Without humans monitoring the wall, it only slows down those who want to cross illegally. If humans are monitoring the wall for illegal traffic, a wall isn't necessary.


In addition, when you say that the walls "work", what do you mean? Does it stop terrorists from entering the U.S.? (They usually fly into our country.) Does it stop drugs from entering the U.S.? (Those are usually driven in through checkpoints.) The ones it affects the most are the poor refugees trying to save their lives. (Rich folks can fly or get on a boat and avoid the wall.)
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2083 on: January 25, 2019, 11:56:07 AM »
And that is your OPINION on all fronts (ineffective, contrary to national values, harmful to neighbors, potentially deadly...), and there is evidence on both sides to support or deny your OPINION.  However, being on both sides, a good chunk of that evidence suggests you are in fact quite wrong.


There is evidence that walls don't work. Tunnels have been dug under them. Drugs are thrown over them. It's been demonstrated that a saw can cut through them. In addition, we have thousands of miles of ocean on our borders were there are no walls that can be reached by boats. Without humans monitoring the wall, it only slows down those who want to cross illegally. If humans are monitoring the wall for illegal traffic, a wall isn't necessary.


In addition, when you say that the walls "work", what do you mean? Does it stop terrorists from entering the U.S.? (They usually fly into our country.) Does it stop drugs from entering the U.S.? (Those are usually driven in through checkpoints.) The ones it affects the most are the poor refugees trying to save their lives. (Rich folks can fly or get on a boat and avoid the wall.)

By that measure, no human endeavor works.  Why plant crops?  There is always a drought somewhere.  Why treat patients?  They will only die eventually.  Why have any laws?  Someone, somewhere, will break them or find a way around them.  It’s all ineffective.

RandyBosch

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2084 on: January 25, 2019, 12:20:03 PM »
Leave it to a philosopher to totally miss the point made by poetry. /quote]

Most acknowledged great poets in history were neither English majors nor wrote in English.
Although an English major can receive a great education, and apparently a great percentage of successful business executives were first English majors, you are using a "special pleading" to claim superiority in reading the mind of a poet.

When asked to reveal the hidden meaning of his poems, as recorded in a PBS program about and including him, Robert Frost's response was "If I wanted you to know I'd had told you in the poem

Concerned about "A Concern for "'Morality' in our Land, or not?", I'll opt for Robert Frost's answer.
I would appreciate reading your agenda-loaded analysis - that means "opinion" of his actual poem, however.

Thank you in advance and suggesting a separate thread be started, perhaps "English Major Pastors Interpret Poems".
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:31:30 PM by RandyBosch »