Author Topic: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?  (Read 128559 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1665 on: October 31, 2018, 01:20:16 PM »
As to the threat of fascism in America, just who would establish it?  Donald Trump with the help of the Army, the Navy, the Air Force or maybe the constabulary in Mayberry USA?  People should stop throwing around accusations that can't bear up under 30 seconds of consecutive thought.

It is already being established via the actions of Mr. Trump that I described above and by the unconditional acceptance of those actions by millions of his obedient followers. 

Full-blown fascism does indeed require the support of police, judges, the military, and other governmental institutions, but the process of getting those institutions into alignment ("Gleichschaultung") takes many years. In the meantime, incremental changes introduced by the authoritarian Leader and his ardent supporters can indeed start a country down that road.

Matt Becker

Any exercise of the authority of governmental office is closer to fascism than is anarchy. 


Fascism ≠ Totalitarianism.  Fascism was a particular social, political and philosophical movement, one aspect of which was an authoritarianism that led to totalitarianism.  If every exercise of authority should be taken as a move toward fascism, then laws that severely restrict smoking and force smokers to do so only in designated (and usually inconvenient and uncomfortable) areas is a move toward fascism.  Ditto laws to restrict the size of sodas that may be sold, or banning plastic drink straws, trans fats, and many other regulations enacted by the "nanny state."  Calling a regulation or person fascist or warning that they are leading us into fascism has just about been reduced to the equivalent to saying, "I don't like that."


Personally, I view laws that would force a baker to violate his conscience and create a cake that expresses something that he conscientiously objects to a step along the way to fascism. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 01:33:55 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Mbecker

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1666 on: October 31, 2018, 01:27:07 PM »
The sheer fact that people are screaming from the rooftops about the evils of fascism is proof positive that fascism is not a political force in this country. Where fascism is a political force those who oppose it dare not speak up. If you can post Trump=Hitler, like I just did, and let literally the entire world have access to that message via the worldwide web, and not fear that you will simply disappear tonight as a result, then you have just demonstrated that Trump does not equal Hitler in any meaningful sense, and that the comparisons of the current U.S. to 1930's Germany is absurd.

Exactly.  As I told a friend a while back, if Trump was Hitler, you'd be on a train right now.

The actions of Trump fit more closely with those of Mussolini.

Hitler had been in power for nearly a decade before European Jews were being sent on trains to the death camps in Poland and elsewhere. Many things had to change in Germany and Europe over several years before those trains could begin to run.

In the late-Weimar period and even throughout the early years of Hitler's regime, many German Jews supported him and the Nazi Party (e.g., Verband nationaldeutscher Juden, Der deutsche Vortrupp). In the national elections of 1930, Jul and Nov of '32, and Mar and Nov of '33, many Jews voted for the Nazi Party.

Matt Becker
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 01:51:32 PM by Mbecker »

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1667 on: October 31, 2018, 01:35:21 PM »
Yes, and because of Trump, the sky is falling.
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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1668 on: October 31, 2018, 01:51:04 PM »
As to the threat of fascism in America, just who would establish it?  Donald Trump with the help of the Army, the Navy, the Air Force or maybe the constabulary in Mayberry USA?  People should stop throwing around accusations that can't bear up under 30 seconds of consecutive thought.

It is already being established via the actions of Mr. Trump that I described above and by the unconditional acceptance of those actions by millions of his obedient followers.

Full-blown fascism does indeed require the support of police, judges, the military, and other governmental institutions, but the process of getting those institutions into alignment ("Gleichschaultung") takes many years. In the meantime, incremental changes introduced by the authoritarian Leader and his ardent supporters can indeed start a country down that road.

Matt Becker
Any exercise of the authority of governmental office is closer to fascism than is anarchy.

True.

But one can also argue that a politics of fear exaggerates the threat of lawlessness and anarchy and makes use of that exaggeration in its propaganda to prepare the way for authoritarian rule.

M. Becker

Matt Hummel

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1669 on: October 31, 2018, 01:54:13 PM »
Peter writes:
Considering that all (literally ALL) of the instances of forcible silencing of anyone in the past several years have been leftist activists silencing conservative voices, the looming fascism you fear might surprise you from behind.

I comment:
No, those "conservative voices" were not silenced. The stories I have seen seemed to say that college students - a cohesive community, if you will - said "we do not want that speaker here." That is not silencing the speaker (and I will admit that the refusal to listen to him or her is another problem). But if by some whacko-bizzarro-looney-tune happenstance, Pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber were to be invited to an LCMS confab, and if those in the LCMS community then cancelled the invitation and said "we don't want her here," is that silencing her?
It is not and it is not being done by civil authority.

I know personally of a Non-sectarian pro-life organization that closed up shop because the weaponized IRS of the Obama administration.caused its founder to throw in the towel after several years of proctological audits. So instead she got out of the 501 (c)3 business and is using her wealth to destroy the Democrat stranglehold on our state. But yeah, Trump's the bad guy.
Matt Hummel


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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1670 on: October 31, 2018, 02:17:55 PM »
For the third time, I'm not interested in answering something I think anyone in this conversation should already know.

But I don't know. Help me to understand. I'm truly ignorant of the reasons that you personally have for viewing Nancy Pelosi the way that you do. I might actually agree with you, if I knew what those reasons are, but you haven't told me. You simply expect me to be smart enough to read your mind or to be "in the know" regarding the thinking of unnamed others who vilify her.

Matt Becker

I'll mention just a few issues and maybe you can figure out why I included "Nancy Pelosi bad."

Pelosi herself has said that she is proud to be called a liberal.  Unless you buy into the liberal position on most issues, that's a negative.

Pelosi opposes free speech by those she finds offensive.

Not only did she support ObamaCare, she would have preferred a single-payer plan.

Is that enough?

aletheist

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1671 on: October 31, 2018, 02:19:28 PM »
Hitler had been in power for nearly a decade before European Jews were being sent on trains to the death camps in Poland and elsewhere. Many things had to change in Germany and Europe over several years before those trains could begin to run.
One of the things that I learned upon visiting Dachau this past summer--needless to say, a very sobering experience--was that it opened in 1933, only weeks after Hitler became chancellor.  While it indeed was not a "death camp" right away, it was announced from the very beginning as a "concentration camp for political prisoners."
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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1672 on: October 31, 2018, 02:20:46 PM »
As to the threat of fascism in America, just who would establish it?  Donald Trump with the help of the Army, the Navy, the Air Force or maybe the constabulary in Mayberry USA?  People should stop throwing around accusations that can't bear up under 30 seconds of consecutive thought.

It is already being established via the actions of Mr. Trump that I described above and by the unconditional acceptance of those actions by millions of his obedient followers. 

Full-blown fascism does indeed require the support of police, judges, the military, and other governmental institutions, but the process of getting those institutions into alignment ("Gleichschaultung") takes many years. In the meantime, incremental changes introduced by the authoritarian Leader and his ardent supporters can indeed start a country down that road.

Matt Becker

Any exercise of the authority of governmental office is closer to fascism than is anarchy. 


Fascism ≠ Totalitarianism.  Fascism was a particular social, political and philosophical movement, one aspect of which was an authoritarianism that led to totalitarianism.  If every exercise of authority should be taken as a move toward fascism, then laws that severely restrict smoking and force smokers to do so only in designated (and usually inconvenient and uncomfortable) areas is a move toward fascism.  Ditto laws to restrict the size of sodas that may be sold, or banning plastic drink straws, trans fats, and many other regulations enacted by the "nanny state."  Calling a regulation or person fascist or warning that they are leading us into fascism has just about been reduced to the equivalent to saying, "I don't like that."


Personally, I view laws that would force a baker to violate his conscience and create a cake that expresses something that he conscientiously objects to a step along the way to fascism.

I look at this much like the theological discussion between Orthodox Christians and other Christians about atonement.  Call it penal substitution, call it "Western anthropology" -- none of that matters.  What we reject (and where I think we find common ground with Lutherans, at least those who take the Confessions seriously) is we are not saved from the Father.  We are not saved from God Himself.

This is similar.  Call it fascism, totalitarianism, authoritarianism -- what we reject is thought policing.  Human liberty and autonomy are inconsistent with the notion that someone else can tell me what I have to think.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1673 on: October 31, 2018, 02:48:04 PM »
One difference, and I suppose you could call it a step back from classic totalitarianism or that totalitarianism of 1984 is that supposedly you are still to be allowed to think whatever you want, you just cannot act upon it and if you wish to participate in the social discourse, legal or business life of society, you must act according to the prevailing thought, you don't have to actually believe it, but you must act as if you do.  Thus you are free to think that same-sex marriage is contrary to God's will, but if you want to run a business or work in one, you must act as though same-sex marriage is just great.  And you must not express any discontent with that in public.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:50:09 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1674 on: October 31, 2018, 02:56:40 PM »
Hitler had been in power for nearly a decade before European Jews were being sent on trains to the death camps in Poland and elsewhere. Many things had to change in Germany and Europe over several years before those trains could begin to run.
One of the things that I learned upon visiting Dachau this past summer--needless to say, a very sobering experience--was that it opened in 1933, only weeks after Hitler became chancellor.  While it indeed was not a "death camp" right away, it was announced from the very beginning as a "concentration camp for political prisoners."

When I taught Valpo students in Germany, I always took them to Buchenwald, although I have visited Dachau several times as well. It was the first Nazi camp in Germany to opened, and was promptly filled with mostly political prisoners (e.g., Communists and Social Democrats) and then later (after 1935) other "criminals," more than 200,000 total before war's end. There weren't that many Jews incarcerated there in the beginning, but that changed after late 1938. While more than 41,000 died there, it was never a "death camp," i.e., one whose sole purpose was the murdering of large numbers of Jews and other "undesirables." Those camps were mostly in Poland.

M. Becker
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:59:01 PM by Mbecker »

Richard Johnson

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1675 on: October 31, 2018, 04:02:08 PM »
For the third time, I'm not interested in answering something I think anyone in this conversation should already know.

But I don't know. Help me to understand. I'm truly ignorant of the reasons that you personally have for viewing Nancy Pelosi the way that you do. I might actually agree with you, if I knew what those reasons are, but you haven't told me. You simply expect me to be smart enough to read your mind or to be "in the know" regarding the thinking of unnamed others who vilify her.

Matt Becker

I agree with Matt. I don't understand the vilification of Ms. Pelosi. Is it because she is a liberal? Because she is the leader of the party? Because she was an effective speaker? Because she is an effective fundraiser? Because she is a woman? Because she is from the Bay Area? Plenty of other people are most of those things, in various combinations, but they do not appear in Republican attack ads.
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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1676 on: October 31, 2018, 04:39:10 PM »
For the third time, I'm not interested in answering something I think anyone in this conversation should already know.

But I don't know. Help me to understand. I'm truly ignorant of the reasons that you personally have for viewing Nancy Pelosi the way that you do. I might actually agree with you, if I knew what those reasons are, but you haven't told me. You simply expect me to be smart enough to read your mind or to be "in the know" regarding the thinking of unnamed others who vilify her.

Matt Becker

I'll mention just a few issues and maybe you can figure out why I included "Nancy Pelosi bad."

Pelosi herself has said that she is proud to be called a liberal.  Unless you buy into the liberal position on most issues, that's a negative.

Pelosi opposes free speech by those she finds offensive.

Not only did she support ObamaCare, she would have preferred a single-payer plan.

Is that enough?


I consider those to be nothing.


I would have preferred a single-payer plan. In fact, I'm on one now since got on Medicare. I have often stated that the ELCA is the most liberal Lutheran denomination in American. "Liberal" is not a bad word. I certainly want God to spread his grace on us "liberally". I also find groups that promote violence to be offensive. (I don't know if the particular group in the article promotes violence.)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1677 on: October 31, 2018, 04:42:12 PM »
One difference, and I suppose you could call it a step back from classic totalitarianism or that totalitarianism of 1984 is that supposedly you are still to be allowed to think whatever you want, you just cannot act upon it and if you wish to participate in the social discourse, legal or business life of society, you must act according to the prevailing thought, you don't have to actually believe it, but you must act as if you do.  Thus you are free to think that same-sex marriage is contrary to God's will, but if you want to run a business or work in one, you must act as though same-sex marriage is just great.  And you must not express any discontent with that in public.


Do you think it's OK for folks to believe that darker skinned people are inferior people, even if the law forces them to treat them as equals in public business?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peter_speckhard

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1678 on: October 31, 2018, 04:53:41 PM »
My objection to Pelosi is her hardcore pro-choice position. I have that against all pro-choicers, of course, but also her doing it while claiming to be a practicing Catholic. I find that repugnant.

MaddogLutheran

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1679 on: October 31, 2018, 04:56:44 PM »
For the third time, I'm not interested in answering something I think anyone in this conversation should already know.

But I don't know. Help me to understand. I'm truly ignorant of the reasons that you personally have for viewing Nancy Pelosi the way that you do. I might actually agree with you, if I knew what those reasons are, but you haven't told me. You simply expect me to be smart enough to read your mind or to be "in the know" regarding the thinking of unnamed others who vilify her.

Matt Becker

I agree with Matt. I don't understand the vilification of Ms. Pelosi. Is it because she is a liberal? Because she is the leader of the party? Because she was an effective speaker? Because she is an effective fundraiser? Because she is a woman? Because she is from the Bay Area? Plenty of other people are most of those things, in various combinations, but they do not appear in Republican attack ads.
The first problem here is that Dr. Becker introduced a word I (or James) did not use..."vilify".  I agree that others have vilified her.  Just as others have vilified George W. Bush.  If you can understand the latter, but not the former, I am at a loss.

A San Francisco Democrat (quoting Jean Kirkpatrick) is to Republicans as a Texas Republican is to Democrats.  My daughter will be taking the SAT next month.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 05:42:22 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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