Author Topic: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?  (Read 93586 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2100 on: January 26, 2019, 09:57:51 AM »
Eileen 🤙
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gan ainm

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2101 on: January 26, 2019, 10:04:07 AM »
Eileen 🤙

I heartily agree with Eileen.

Dave Benke

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2102 on: January 26, 2019, 10:16:21 AM »
Thank you, Eileen!!

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2103 on: January 26, 2019, 10:42:43 AM »
Yes, another gem from Eileen.  Thank you!!!

Charles Austin

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2104 on: January 26, 2019, 12:02:46 PM »
OK, so let us set aside the “morality” issue and the well-others-did-it-too response about sexual and other misconduct.
Let us consider the legal realm.
So far eight close aides to the president have entered guilty pleas on charges against them. Other campaign workers and Trump advisors faced charges or were convicted of perjury, bank fraud, lying about contacts with Russians, and other crimes.
    These include George Papadopolous, foreign policy advisor; Michael Cohen, the President’s top lawyer one time; Paul Manafort, a top campaign aide; Michael Flynn, briefly National Security Advisor; Richard Pinedo, head of company that aided campaign and sold stolen bank information to Russians; Alex Van Der Zwaan, a Dutch lawyer who worked with the campaign and lied about Russian contacts; Rick Gates and Robert Stone, both close Trump advisors.
   Now it seems clear that Rudy Giuliani, by his changed public comments, has lied at least to the American public, about the president’s activities.
   Some of the indictments speak of mob-like activities, including death threats and in one case a threat against the target’s dog and family.
   A television commentator (missed the name, I did) said that if the president were head of a company, the board of directors would fire him immediately because his appointments and associates brought disgrace and criminality into the firm.
Personally, I don’t much care who he sleeps with (although his comments about women should enrage anyone who thinks about equality and sexism in our society), but I do care about the criminality involved in covering up his sexual encounters and, either tacitly or overtly, endorsing criminal activity in his organization.
   To counter the expected responses: I do not hate him. I am beginning to pity him as a man with no moral or humane compass and no understanding of the constitution he is supposed to defend. He appears to be the classic egotist with an inferiority complex, a pathological liar, and a troubled man whose life and wealth have worked their worst on him. He might even be on the edge of a breakdown.
   Or – a bigger fear – he is a smart operator, able to divert our attention, get certain types on his side and subtly take over a nation. 
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peter_speckhard

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2105 on: January 26, 2019, 02:57:09 PM »
That a shady real estate developer hung out with shady people was well known before the election. That a bunch of people have been indicted doesn’t mean anything to me, nor do plea agreements based on process crimes. I live in a post-Clinton political world. Until someone provides evidence that the president did something criminal that hurt the nation in some significant way (not based on a partisan view of what hurts America, but that most people of both parties would say hurt America significantly) I simply tune out the daily dribble of nonsense about the Mueller investigation.

MaddogLutheran

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2106 on: January 26, 2019, 03:05:55 PM »
OK, so let us set aside the “morality” issue and the well-others-did-it-too response about sexual and other misconduct.
Let us consider the legal realm.

Why?  Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Over a week ago, on this thread, I gave you two illegal things the previous president did, and you claimed I was obsessed with him.  Perhaps it takes one to know one.  At any rate, I pointed those things out to highlight the bad faith you demonstrate by only caring about the questionable actions of politicians you don't like.  I agree with almost everything you say about Trump and his deficiencies.

Barack Obama's long standing associations with Tony Rezko (shady real estate developer) or Bill Ayers (domestic terrorist) continue to be a big nothing burger for some.  And of course, all the unsavory people the Clintons were associated with in the 90's was never disqualifying.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 03:08:58 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2107 on: January 26, 2019, 03:31:14 PM »

OK, so let us set aside the “morality” issue

OK, you start this thread about morality, you continually harp about how immoral Pres. Trump has been, you complain that when anyone brings up any moral issue that does not involve Pres. Trump they are simply evading the issue as though the immorality of Donald Trump was not the most pressing moral issue facing America, the only one worth discussing.


What happened that you suddenly abandon your assertion that Donald Trump is the greatest moral blight in world history?
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Charles Austin

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2108 on: January 26, 2019, 03:41:00 PM »
I still express surprise that people care so little about the president’s character.
Just wondered if anyone was concerned about the criminality rampant around him.
I guess no one is.
And, Pastor Fienen, do not ascribe things to me that I never said. There are heads of nations who are worse than Mr. Trump. But I do not live in those nations.
I am concerned about the man in our highest office.
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2109 on: January 26, 2019, 04:02:47 PM »
I still express surprise that people care so little about the president’s character.
Just wondered if anyone was concerned about the criminality rampant around him.
I guess no one is.
And, Pastor Fienen, do not ascribe things to me that I never said. There are heads of nations who are worse than Mr. Trump. But I do not live in those nations.
I am concerned about the man in our highest office.

You are concerned about President Trump's morality.  OK.  I was concerned (and am concerned) about the morality of high officials, including past presidents, who support and embrace and praise the legalization of abortion.  About the politicians who, with the stroke of a pen, decide that the unborn are not human, that they have no rights, that they are disposable.  How can those who have no compassion on the weakest and most vulnerable be allowed to hold such office?

But, that's just my view of morality.  And not yours.  So it does not count.  No, you would rather be concerned that there might have been some secret meeting with Russians.  Or that someone the president knew lied.  Or that he told an off-color joke in what he thought was confidence.  Tell me, why is your moral concern more valid than mine?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2110 on: January 26, 2019, 04:19:10 PM »
OK, so let us set aside the “morality” issue and the well-others-did-it-too response about sexual and other misconduct.
Let us consider the legal realm.

Why?  Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Over a week ago, on this thread, I gave you two illegal things the previous president did, and you claimed I was obsessed with him.  Perhaps it takes one to know one.  At any rate, I pointed those things out to highlight the bad faith you demonstrate by only caring about the questionable actions of politicians you don't like.  I agree with almost everything you say about Trump and his deficiencies.

Barack Obama's long standing associations with Tony Rezko (shady real estate developer) or Bill Ayers (domestic terrorist) continue to be a big nothing burger for some.  And of course, all the unsavory people the Clintons were associated with in the 90's was never disqualifying.


1. Neither Clinton nor Obama are the president now. Maybe what they did in the past was immoral; but the past is gone.


2. How many of those associates of Clinton and Obama were indicted and found or pled guilty to crimes? How many spent time in jail? Some did, but not as many of Trump's close associates.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 04:24:25 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

gan ainm

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2111 on: January 26, 2019, 04:23:18 PM »
I have been reflecting on this thread and its title.  I have also been studying Galatians.  I am struck by how the old Adam likes the Law much more than the Gospel (and how Lutherans supposedly believe doctrine is more important than morality) - a clear teaching of Paul in Galatians where he really goes after false teaching versus what he had to say to the Corinthians where morality was the issue.  I mention supposedly because of the content of this thread is very Law based.   I am reminded of the battle for the Bible, i.e. the walkout and Seminex, and how the importance of keeping the correct doctrine front and center was worth losing 90% of the CSL professors who were  teaching historical criticism and all its spinoffs in doubting Scripture, that is not holding to hundreds of years of Scriptural accuracy doctrine.  Our old Adam is alive and well.  Perhaps politics makes it easy for Satan to attack our weak spots to further divide us within the church.  I think Eileen has it right, the solution is not with Trump, or his removal or continuance, or handwringing over politicians character. The solution is within the church, at least that part of it that remains faithful to God’s Word, and what we are teaching - God’s Word or social justice or something else.  These are just some reflections on a cold winter day.  YMMV.

Charles Austin

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2112 on: January 26, 2019, 04:28:34 PM »
It’s no use, Brian. So long as any official anywhere supports the current abortion laws, there is no other morality that matters.  It is one issue. That’s all. Nothing else matters.
If a politician favored abolishing the constitution, but was “pro life,” the people here would support him.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2113 on: January 26, 2019, 04:33:39 PM »
I have been reflecting on this thread and its title.  I have also been studying Galatians.  I am struck by how the old Adam likes the Law much more than the Gospel (and how Lutherans supposedly believe doctrine is more important than morality) - a clear teaching of Paul in Galatians where he really goes after false teaching versus what he had to say to the Corinthians where morality was the issue.  I mention supposedly because of the content of this thread is very Law based.   I am reminded of the battle for the Bible, i.e. the walkout and Seminex, and how the importance of keeping the correct doctrine front and center was worth losing 90% of the CSL professors who were  teaching historical criticism and all its spinoffs in doubting Scripture, that is not holding to hundreds of years of Scriptural accuracy doctrine.  Our old Adam is alive and well.  Perhaps politics makes it easy for Satan to attack our weak spots to further divide us within the church.  I think Eileen has it right, the solution is not with Trump, or his removal or continuance, or handwringing over politicians character. The solution is within the church, at least that part of it that remains faithful to God’s Word, and what we are teaching - God’s Word or social justice or something else.  These are just some reflections on a cold winter day.  YMMV.


Robert Capon argues: "However much we hate the law, we're more afraid of grace" (Between Noon and Three, p. 5). So much doctrine is putting conditions on God's unconditional grace. We often conditionize grace with statements that begin, "yes, but …." God forgives all your sins in Jesus Christ. Yes, but you have to truly repent to receive that forgiveness. Yes, but you have to stop willfully committing the sins to receive that forgiveness.


Why do folks want to legislate limits to abortion? Because they don't believe people with unconditional freedom to do whatever they want and be forgiven; will do the right thing - so we use the Law to encourage moral behaviors.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2114 on: January 26, 2019, 04:36:30 PM »
OK, so let us set aside the “morality” issue and the well-others-did-it-too response about sexual and other misconduct.
Let us consider the legal realm.

Why?  Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Over a week ago, on this thread, I gave you two illegal things the previous president did, and you claimed I was obsessed with him.  Perhaps it takes one to know one.  At any rate, I pointed those things out to highlight the bad faith you demonstrate by only caring about the questionable actions of politicians you don't like.  I agree with almost everything you say about Trump and his deficiencies.

Barack Obama's long standing associations with Tony Rezko (shady real estate developer) or Bill Ayers (domestic terrorist) continue to be a big nothing burger for some.  And of course, all the unsavory people the Clintons were associated with in the 90's was never disqualifying.


1. Neither Clinton nor Obama are the president now. Maybe what they did in the past was immoral; but the past is gone.

Here, let me make it big so you can't miss it this time:

At any rate, I pointed those things out to highlight the bad faith you demonstrate by only caring about the questionable actions of politicians you don't like.  I agree with almost everything you say about Trump and his deficiencies.

Bad faith and I'll add tribalism.
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