Author Topic: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...  (Read 6022 times)

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12959
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2019, 12:20:03 PM »
Pastor Fienen again:
Actually. I question how well you actually know us in the LCMS since you seem to think that we are pretty much all bullies and control freaks.
I comment:
Never said that. Ever. Simply said that it could be hard for people who know God's exact word on a situation to accept someone who heard a different word.

Pastor Fienen:
I have had good friends in the ELCA.
Me:
I am grinning. "Oh, I can't be ------ " (put in your own word) "some of my best friends are ------"

Pastor Fienen:
When I visit family in Minnesota, I more often attend my one brother's ELCA congregation, especially if he happens to be playing the organ, though I do also attend my other brother's WELS congregation (equal time and fairness and all that).
Me:
And if you were issued a specific invitation to - as a fellow Lutheran - commune, I do not think you would accept that invitation.  So...

Pastor Fienen:
I've appreciated the worship in the ELCA church and did not feel that I needed to perform a special cleansing ritual afterwards even when the preacher was a woman.
Me:
Overstatement, but … (And I would like to hear you say you heard the Gospel preached from this pastor.)

Pastor Fienen:
In communicating with members of my churches who have moved away, I do encourage them to if reasonably possible transfer to an LCMS church, but encourage them to be active in a church, even ELCA, even non-Lutheran if that is what makes sense in their situation.  Nor do I suggest that if they don't join another LCMS church that they are abandoning the faith.
Me:
This is the most "openness" I have ever heard from you and I am glad to read this.

Pastor Fienen:
Have you always been this condescending?
Me:
No, I don't think so. But....

Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 42424
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2019, 12:45:21 PM »
OK. Maybe. But I lost some respect for some of the “traditionalists” who, rather than staying in the  ELCA, fled from it, Because they didn’t get their way.

Perhaps they really, really, really believe that what you did was wrong and sinful.

That is, perhaps they fled not because they "didn't get their way," but because they perceived the house to really be on fire.

The ELCA house really is on fire (in the dangerous sense of that phrase) in terms of its scriptural hermeneutic.  I fled to the LCMS because too much ecumenism has led the ELCA away from its Lutheran framework:  Justification by faith.  By losing that frame ELCA has quit its focus on the basis of the unaltered Augsburg Confession, imo.


On internship, I, with a few other conference pastors attended a women's event. (We men were secluded in the cry room.) The speaker talked about reaching up and grabbing what God has to offer. I said something like, "That sounds very Pelagian to me." Another pastor responded with something like, "If she wants to think that she helps God out, that doesn't change the fact that God has saved by her solely by grace."


Even if the thinking of our ecumenical partners isn't quite as orthodox as you want it to be, it is not our thoughts and words that change what God is doing. Many people not only think, but have said to me, "God helps them who help themselves." That isn't scriptural. It certainly isn't our theology. I try to correct them; but their words do not change God's actions. Jesus still died for their sins. They are forgiven solely by God for Jesus' sake - not because they can recite the right (or rite) words.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Coach-Rev

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 472
  • Rev. Jeff Cottingham, STS
    • View Profile
    • Trinity Lutheran Church
Re: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2019, 01:20:05 PM »
But what I do not understand is those who have carried grudges, bitterness and serious hostility now - almost 10 years later - and insist on venting and tossing grenades back over our walls. It's not only sexuality that fires their minds, its ecumenism, scripture, the structure of the ELCA, what previous presiding bishops said, what some church in California is doing, or how they believe they were treated by their bishops.

Because you and others (including the darling poster child of the ELCA, NBW) continue to hurl invective our way when we are critical of your positions, statements, and stances, that we understand to be doing critical damage to the moral fabric of this country, and to be completely and totally UNBiblical.  then, rather than at least acknowledge this rather profound difference of position, you hurl more invective toward those with whom you disagree, calling them dense, or obtuse, (I believe those are two of your favorites).


Quote
But maybe it's my outlook that should be changed...

...And if someone has a problem with that, it's their problem, not mine.


I see you've made significant strides toward that end...  >:(
"The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln

blog:  http://coach-rev.blogspot.com/
photography:  https://jeffcottingham.smugmug.com/

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12148
    • View Profile
Re: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2019, 01:50:28 PM »
Pastor Fienen again:
Actually. I question how well you actually know us in the LCMS since you seem to think that we are pretty much all bullies and control freaks.
I comment:
Never said that. Ever. Simply said that it could be hard for people who know God's exact word on a situation to accept someone who heard a different word.

I think that you have been pretty clear what sort of people you think that we are.  For example:

Pastor Fienen writes:
The father in your anecdote sounds like he was at least a bit of a bully with control issues.  Since you use him as an example of how holding to traditional sexual morality leads to family cut offs and fracturing, are you suggesting that it is characteristic of those who hold traditional morality to be bullies with control issues?
I comment:
I do not speak for Brian, but yes, I do think that is a characteristic of those who hold rigid, never-to-be altered rules on anything in which they believe they have the direct word from God.

Pastor Fienen:
Certainly his view of sexual morality played a role in the family discord, but seems to me it was more the way he typically handled disagreements, as a bully with control issues, that was at the heart of the problem.  Or do you suggest that those who hold traditional sexual morality are incapable of resolving such conflicts in any way other than bullying and being controlling?
Me:
Again, not speaking for Brian; but if you hold view is that no one, ever, anytime or anywhere or under any circumstance, should be having sexual intercourse outside the traditional bond of marriage and that this is the absouted, total and immutable Word of God and if you hold that people who live together before marriage should be expelled from or severely disciplined within the Christian community, I do not see how you can resolve the conflict without bullying and controlling and having it your way.
Imagine this, a totally true situation. She was one of my confirmands, from a solid, active, long-time church family; strong LCMS background. She sang in the choir, was an acolyte, had been taught in Sunday School since grade school. Her mother and father were both active; scripturally literate, fun to have in a Bible Study group, and had served the congregation in many ways. They were educated, cultured, and cared about their faith and life.
She announced her engagement. I met the man, a less-active, but life-long Lutheran. The marriage was a year away, but they were planning on buying a house or condominium in a couple of months and moving in. We spoke of vacationing in Cancun, Mexico, one of my favorite places; I learned they had been there a month before our conversation. Actually, that is where he proposed.
So what am I, as pastor to her, the young man and their families to do?
Say "Stop that, you sinners! Repent of your sins until the church and state say your relationship is legitimate? Everything you have done now is wrong and you have to rid yourself of these evil actions?"


Pastor Fienen:
I have had good friends in the ELCA.
Me:
I am grinning. "Oh, I can't be ------ " (put in your own word) "some of my best friends are ------"

{slow clap}  You have seemed to think that I am not at all familiar with the ELCA.  Not true, even though I do not have the breadth of your ecumenical experience.  Can you say that you have been friends with conservative LCMS people?

Pastor Fienen:
When I visit family in Minnesota, I more often attend my one brother's ELCA congregation, especially if he happens to be playing the organ, though I do also attend my other brother's WELS congregation (equal time and fairness and all that).
Me:
And if you were issued a specific invitation to - as a fellow Lutheran - commune, I do not think you would accept that invitation.  So...

In the WELS church, they would not invite me to commune and I would respect their policy if for no other reason than that I am a guest in their house and if they say "No" I'll respect that.

In the ELCA church I also will refrain from communing.  The LCMS is not in altar fellowship with the ELCA and it is our church body's stated policy that we do not intercommune.  I am a member of the LCMS, which in my case means a bit more than that I attend an LCMS congregation.  I have signed the constitution and have committed to following the policies of the LCMS.

Tell me, if you invited a Baptist or someone else who has committed not to drink alcohol to your house would you be offended if they declined your invitation to have a good brew?  (Say a Samuel Adams lager or the like, turning down the offer of lite beer would just show good taste.)

I find it curious that you have consistently insisted that ELCA pastors and congregations are obligated to be in compliance with the duties and responsibilities of membership, including (as I recall) supporting the mission and ministries of the ELCA with mission support, involvement, not bad mouthing the ELCA and following the rules and policies.  You have been scathing toward those whom you have seen as shirking those duties.  Yet when it comes to the LCMS you encourage those members to disregard LCMS rules and policies that you don't like and applaud those who disobey them.

Pastor Fienen:
I've appreciated the worship in the ELCA church and did not feel that I needed to perform a special cleansing ritual afterwards even when the preacher was a woman.
Me:
Overstatement, but … (And I would like to hear you say you heard the Gospel preached from this pastor.)

Yes, overstatement but I suppose you don't recognize whimsy or sarcasm when you read it. 

Sorry, I thought hearing the Gospel preached from the pastor was implicit in enjoying and appreciating the worship.  Have you never read anything that I have written about women pastors?

As I recall the worship service that I attended that was most distressing to me was a community baccalaureate service that I attended.  The sermon was very well done, well constructed and illustrated, very well delivered, even well directed at the primary audience, the students.  What distressed me was not that the sermon was well done but that it contained not a shred of Gospel.  Jesus was mentioned as an illustration of the theme, "You do right by God, and God will do right by you."  (The preacher was not ELCA, I certainly would have expected better from such a one, but American Baptist.)

Pastor Fienen:
In communicating with members of my churches who have moved away, I do encourage them to if reasonably possible transfer to an LCMS church, but encourage them to be active in a church, even ELCA, even non-Lutheran if that is what makes sense in their situation.  Nor do I suggest that if they don't join another LCMS church that they are abandoning the faith.
Me:
This is the most "openness" I have ever heard from you and I am glad to read this.

Just goes to show how little you really know me or care to.  I can remember disparaging comments you have posted concerning how difficult and uncomfortable my family get togethers must have been with my oldest brother being ELCA and the rest of the family LCMS.  Obviously, being LCMS we could not be civil to a family member who has converted and is one of "those."  Actually, I stopped dragging my knuckles when I was a toddler.

Pastor Fienen:
Have you always been this condescending?
Me:
No, I don't think so. But....
See above.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:08:29 PM by Dan Fienen »
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12959
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2019, 04:56:33 PM »
Pastor Cottingham, I am not hurtling invective or anything else your direction, except what I said years ago, namely, I wish you well in your new church body. May you be happy and blessed there. May your ministry there prosper.
Those wishes are the only thing I am today sending your direction.


Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12959
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2019, 06:27:58 PM »
And my conversation with Pastor Fienen, including my compliment to him (which was apparently rejected) again hits the dead-end of dodge-this, overstate-that, ignore the other thing, and "but you said..." (when I didn't).
So carry on.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Dave Benke

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12143
    • View Profile
    • Atlantic District, LCMS
Re: A public plea to Pr. Engelbrecht and the ALPB...
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2019, 07:27:03 PM »
Pastor Cottingham, I am not hurtling invective or anything else your direction, except what I said years ago, namely, I wish you well in your new church body. May you be happy and blessed there. May your ministry there prosper.
Those wishes are the only thing I am today sending your direction.

"Hurling," not "Hurtling" in this case, no?  The recipient of hurled invective is called upon to hurdle invective, if it is hurled toward the lower half of the body. 
Viz. - "I have hurdled the invective you hurled at me, Bob, even when you hurtled it at increased speeds."
I got this from Cardi B at the Grammys.

Dave Benke