Author Topic: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?  (Read 93599 times)

Charles Austin

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A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« on: July 17, 2018, 10:41:38 AM »
I doubt this topic will last long in this modest forum; for it is nowhere near "theological" enough, nor does it have to do with sexuality (at least not mostly) or abortion.
But, can anyone with any sense of morality not be shocked and outraged at the astonishing performance of our president this week?
He attacks our own intelligence agencies, and says he believes what the Russians tell him.
He blames our justice system for badly affecting relations with Russia, meanwhile suggesting that Russia's stellar "justice system" could help ours deal with his problem.
He brag about his "brilliant" election campaign and obsesses with Mrs. Clinton in a most inappropriate arena.
He refuses to confront Russia's aggression in the world.
His words, either lies, astonishingly stupid or actually treasonous, shock former CIA directors and agents and politicians from both parties.
He weakens NATO with his bombastic bluster, and falls prey to the sneaky dealings of North Korea's dictator. He angers our best friends in the world including - can you imagine? - Canada.
And Putin says he didn’t know Trump was in Moscow back in “those” days. Trump claims he had contact with Putin during those days. (But he waffled on that comment, too.)
This is a level of immorality or incompetence or stupidity or something worse that has to shock anyone with any sense of patriotism or decency.
Now close the meeting, moderators. This is not the kind of morality that anyone here cares about.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

James S. Rustad

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 10:47:43 AM »
Actually...

I care that our president is a clown.  However, I am still not convinced that I should have voted for Clinton.  Neither one was worth voting for.

Richard Johnson

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 10:53:55 AM »
I thought one of the most disturbing things was his tweet which referred to "MY intelligence people." The capital letters (in the original) suggest that he really does think like an autocrat.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Richard Johnson

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 10:55:34 AM »
Actually...

I care that our president is a clown.  However, I am still not convinced that I should have voted for Clinton.  Neither one was worth voting for.

I don't disagree. But I think this week's performance indicates he's gone beyond "clown."
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

RandyBosch

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2018, 10:56:40 AM »
I thought one of the most disturbing things was his tweet which referred to "MY intelligence people." The capital letters (in the original) suggest that he really does think like an autocrat.

Perhaps, but note that he hasn't yet reached the "I" and "My" output of the previous holder of the office.
It seems that power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and no one reaches that level of authority without hubris, blind ambition and believe that they are personally entitled to the power.

RandyBosch

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2018, 10:58:05 AM »
Since the current President may likely not be re-elected, it explains why he didn't assure Putin that he would have more flexibility with the Russian leader after the next election.

I'm particularly miffed that he didn't get the "Reset" button back.

gan ainm

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2018, 11:07:03 AM »
It is indeed a roller coaster ride.  The only question is which presidents are at the top of the loop and which are at the bottom.  Or, are all at the top and bottom at various times during their terms?  And, who are we to judge top and bottom, those of us who live in glass houses should be careful about throwing stones.  Or if you prefer, the logs and specks version.  Until we vote, basically all comments and speculation are just that, idle speculation and comments and bloviating but that is what we sinners do so well.  Unless of course you happen to be a member of congress and can vote and bloviate in between election cycles.   ;D ;D ;D

RandyBosch

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2018, 11:12:43 AM »
It is indeed a roller coaster ride.  The only question is which presidents are at the top of the loop and which are at the bottom.  Or, are all at the top and bottom at various times during their terms?  And, who are we to judge top and bottom, those of us who live in glass houses should be careful about throwing stones.  Or if you prefer, the logs and specks version.  Until we vote, basically all comments and speculation are just that, idle speculation and comments and bloviating but that is what we sinners do so well.  Unless of course you happen to be a member of congress and can vote and bloviate in between election cycles.   ;D ;D ;D

William Howard Taft called, he wants his "bloviating" back....

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2018, 11:15:34 AM »
I doubt this topic will last long in this modest forum; for it is nowhere near "theological" enough, nor does it have to do with sexuality (at least not mostly) or abortion.
But, can anyone with any sense of morality not be shocked and outraged at the astonishing performance of our president this week?
He attacks our own intelligence agencies, and says he believes what the Russians tell him.
He blames our justice system for badly affecting relations with Russia, meanwhile suggesting that Russia's stellar "justice system" could help ours deal with his problem.
He brag about his "brilliant" election campaign and obsesses with Mrs. Clinton in a most inappropriate arena.
He refuses to confront Russia's aggression in the world.
His words, either lies, astonishingly stupid or actually treasonous, shock former CIA directors and agents and politicians from both parties.
He weakens NATO with his bombastic bluster, and falls prey to the sneaky dealings of North Korea's dictator. He angers our best friends in the world including - can you imagine? - Canada.
And Putin says he didn’t know Trump was in Moscow back in “those” days. Trump claims he had contact with Putin during those days. (But he waffled on that comment, too.)
This is a level of immorality or incompetence or stupidity or something worse that has to shock anyone with any sense of patriotism or decency.
Now close the meeting, moderators. This is not the kind of morality that anyone here cares about.

Of all the smug, condescending posts, this one hits a new level.  It is in tone and attitude almost worthy to be a Trump Tweet, except that it is much longer.  Even Trump cannot bend the character limits on Twitter.  Only good and angry Progressives like Pr. Austin have any sense of honor, decency or morality.  Since the rest of us haven't jumped on the Progressive, "Ain't Trump Just the Most Awful" bandwagon, we are morally bankrupt.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2018, 11:29:32 AM »
I doubt this topic will last long in this modest forum; for it is nowhere near "theological" enough, nor does it have to do with sexuality (at least not mostly) or abortion.
But, can anyone with any sense of morality not be shocked and outraged at the astonishing performance of our president this week?
He attacks our own intelligence agencies, and says he believes what the Russians tell him.
He blames our justice system for badly affecting relations with Russia, meanwhile suggesting that Russia's stellar "justice system" could help ours deal with his problem.
He brag about his "brilliant" election campaign and obsesses with Mrs. Clinton in a most inappropriate arena.
He refuses to confront Russia's aggression in the world.
His words, either lies, astonishingly stupid or actually treasonous, shock former CIA directors and agents and politicians from both parties.
He weakens NATO with his bombastic bluster, and falls prey to the sneaky dealings of North Korea's dictator. He angers our best friends in the world including - can you imagine? - Canada.
And Putin says he didn’t know Trump was in Moscow back in “those” days. Trump claims he had contact with Putin during those days. (But he waffled on that comment, too.)
This is a level of immorality or incompetence or stupidity or something worse that has to shock anyone with any sense of patriotism or decency.
Now close the meeting, moderators. This is not the kind of morality that anyone here cares about.

Of all the smug, condescending posts, this one hits a new level.  It is in tone and attitude almost worthy to be a Trump Tweet, except that it is much longer.  Even Trump cannot bend the character limits on Twitter.  Only good and angry Progressives like Pr. Austin have any sense of honor, decency or morality.  Since the rest of us haven't jumped on the Progressive, "Ain't Trump Just the Most Awful" bandwagon, we are morally bankrupt.


So, which type of disagreement are you posting? See Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement chart.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

D. Engebretson

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2018, 11:36:24 AM »
I watch the morning news most days, and have to admit that some days I cringe more than others.  I don't pretend to understand how or why our president acts the way he does. Others wish to attached value judgments accusing the president of lying and stupidity.  Since there are more than enough to do that, I will refrain.  I see no purpose in it at my level. That said, I really wonder what impact the recent meeting with Putin will really have. 

We can be reasonably sure that....

--Our intelligence agencies are not going to stop doing what they do.  They will continue to investigate and protect the country.  Putin knows this. 
--The investigation by Robert Mueller will continue.  Putin knows this. 
--NATO will remain intact and despite our president's concerns we will continue to support it.  Putin knows this.
--We will be extra vigilant at future elections looking for possible Russian interference.  Putin knows this. 

Trump could have used the national stage to reprimand Putin and accuse him of all sorts of crimes against the US.  Some believe he should have, although I have to think that this would have offered little more than a political sign.  Putin has no plans to stop doing what he is doing regardless of what Trump says.  Trump knows this. 

At the least I suppose I wish Trump had said nothing rather than mutually accuse both countries, claiming that ours has engaged in foolishness.  I don't think this did anything to encourage our intelligence efforts at home, or our overall morale. 

Does anyone think that if Trump had confronted Putin in private and then berated him in public that anything would really change? Do we think that Putin would have thought twice about future espionage? Not that he didn't lose an opportunity to tell Putin what our own intelligence agencies are aware of and that his own people are indicted here and that we in no way approve of any interference on his countries part.  That should have been made clear.  Since the meeting was closed we will never know exactly what was said.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2018, 11:49:36 AM »

Not to defend Trump, there really is little that can be defended, but some of the way he is dealing with Russia is the result of Left not being able to get over the presidential election.  If Trump obsesses with Hilary, the Left obsesses over the election that they lost.


Since Pres. Trump's stunning election, the Left have obsessed with delegitimizing his election win.  We've heard it all ad nauseum.  Yes, Trump did not win the popular vote.  But that has never been what decided presidential elections since George Washington was elected the first president under the new Constitution.  Change it if you like (fat chance) but that is the way our presidential elections operate, get over it.


Then there has been the Mueller investigation.  No matter what the actual mandate was and continues to be for the investigation, and no matter that indictments have result for a few Americans for charges at best peripherally connected with collusion between Trump and his campaign and the Russians to affect the election, and for Russians who meddled with the election and tried to sway the outcome, so far the investigation has found no such collusion and no evidence that the Russian meddling actually significantly affected the election result.  Yet from the start, the investigation has been pushed by the Left to produce evidence of collusion by Donald Trump and his campaign with the Russians and thereby cheating to win the election.  This investigation would prove, prove that Donald Trump's election as president was illegitimate.  That no such evidence has been forth coming has not slowed down the drum beat.
'
'Every time that the Left has argued that the election, Donald Trump's crowning achievement, was fake, he pushes back all the more.  If the Left is going to say that Russia got him elected, he is going to push back and say that they had nothing to do with it.  That both are likely wrong doesn't change the claims or emotions one bit.  Both the Left and Trump with their public statements are running less on the facts of the matter and much more on their emotional reactions.  That is not a good recipe for running the country.  If the Left would admit that by their miscalculation and misunderstanding of the American people they lost the election they could lower the emotional heat of the national conversation and also be more realistic about what it will take to win this Fall and in two years.  As it is, they just keep egging Pres. Trump on to defend what he achieved - a stunning victory over a well oiled and well healed political machine.  A cynic might suppose that some of them realize this and continue to push the illegitimate election meme despite the fact that it was not illegitimate by all the evidence brought to light so far just to try to get Pres. Trump to self destruct, never mind the harm that might do.  After all, what is more important, the good of the country or the good of their political future?  In their own way, they are being just about as short sighted as Trump.


Not that any of this speaks well for Pres. Trump.  A president needs to rise above the needs of his ego and pride to take a sober look at the evidence and the needs of the nation.  A president needs to refuse to be goaded.


History ultimately will decide where Pres. Trump succeeds and where he will fail.  It is certainly too early to tell that now.  If, and it remains a big if, he succeeds in bringing a formal end to the Korean War and effects the denuclearization of Korean Peninsula, that would be a great accomplishment.  Nobody knows yet if that will happen.  Pres. Nixon for all that he self-destructed had major accomplishments during his time in office.  Among them was the establishment of formal relations with the People's Republic of China.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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RandyBosch

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2018, 11:51:30 AM »
Now close the meeting, moderators. This is not the kind of morality that anyone here cares about. 

Takes first word and demands last word.  What can you do about it?  Since you now reside in Minnesota, perhaps you could look at State politics there, current office holders, pretenders to the various thrones, and their immoralities or fabulous accomplishments (your mileage may vary).

Every day's news reveals yet another example of Minnesota as a microcosm of National politics and culture - and Minnesota almost went for Trump in 2016!  Work to be done!  People living in a Glass House throwing stones!

David Garner

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2018, 12:05:24 PM »
This post epitomizes my general thoughts about leftist leanings in modern society.

You're going to think bad things about me anyway.  Why should I participate?

I'm not a Trump voter by any means, but the left's reaction to those who are only entrenches them further, and creates sympathy among people who would otherwise be fellow travelers in opposing him.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dan Fienen

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Re: A Concern for "Morality" in our Land, or not?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2018, 12:07:23 PM »
Now close the meeting, moderators. This is not the kind of morality that anyone here cares about. 

Takes first word and demands last word.  What can you do about it?  Since you now reside in Minnesota, perhaps you could look at State politics there, current office holders, pretenders to the various thrones, and their immoralities or fabulous accomplishments (your mileage may vary).

Every day's news reveals yet another example of Minnesota as a microcosm of National politics and culture - and Minnesota almost went for Trump in 2016!  Work to be done!  People living in a Glass House throwing stones!

Why not open and close it in one post.  Charles has long demonstrated that he not only isn't interested in reading anyone who doesn't already agree with him, he does not.  He takes whatever anyone else writes and makes up a caricature that suits is argument and responds to that.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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