Author Topic: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions  (Read 6887 times)

John_Hannah

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U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« on: June 18, 2018, 04:13:22 PM »
Rather than continue under "Misuse" I'll start a thread on immigration.

The problems seem intractable for a congress of elected representatives to solve. It seems to me that here the United States is an innocent victim of our huge success as a nation.

1.  We own a huge land mass.  That has allowed us to cultivate unprecedented prosperity but exposes a border many thousands of miles long and impossible to seal.

2.  We have the greatest freedom which attracts oppressed citizens of other nations. You don't see people fleeing to Iran.

3.  We have reasonable security which attracts citizens fearing violence. You don't seeing folks heading to Syria.

4.  We are very wealthy which attracts those in poverty.  You don't see them going to Venezuela.

What to do? Frequently I consider any and all proposals "bogus" and too simplistic because they will not be truly effective. I believe the wall is one of those simplistic and bogus solutions that will provide a (false) sense of security but will not actually seal the border.

Maybe if we had another economic depression, people would think twice before coming here. If it is actually the case that immigrants depress our economy then the problem will take care of itself and they will go back home and others will not follow them. But then the economy is quite strong now so that solution is a ways out in the future.

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DeHall1

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2018, 04:58:06 PM »
Rather than continue under "Misuse" I'll start a thread on immigration.

The problems seem intractable for a congress of elected representatives to solve. It seems to me that here the United States is an innocent victim of our huge success as a nation.

1.  We own a huge land mass.  That has allowed us to cultivate unprecedented prosperity but exposes a border many thousands of miles long and impossible to seal.

2.  We have the greatest freedom which attracts oppressed citizens of other nations. You don't see people fleeing to Iran.

3.  We have reasonable security which attracts citizens fearing violence. You don't seeing folks heading to Syria.

4.  We are very wealthy which attracts those in poverty.  You don't see them going to Venezuela.

What to do? Frequently I consider any and all proposals "bogus" and too simplistic because they will not be truly effective. I believe the wall is one of those simplistic and bogus solutions that will provide a (false) sense of security but will not actually seal the border.

Maybe if we had another economic depression, people would think twice before coming here. If it is actually the case that immigrants depress our economy then the problem will take care of itself and they will go back home and others will not follow them. But then the economy is quite strong now so that solution is a ways out in the future.

Peace, JOHN

3 solutions that I can think of.... First, reform the guest worker VISA program and make it easier to enter legally for a visit or temporary work.  Second,  institute a merit-based system like Canadaís. Third, institute a consumption tax (so your undocumented workers and drug dealers are paying taxes along with everyone else). 

DeHall for President 2020.

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2018, 05:42:20 PM »
The problem of immigration today (as it was in prior eras) is a political one.  What I mean by that is that immigrants change or upset the status quo balance of power in a presumably predictable way.  The DEM's trumpet ("Make America California" demographic wave) and the GOP assumes that when thy come they do three things: 1) move to a city which are largely "blue model", 2) the "blue model" machine gets them all enrolled in every possible gov't program while getting them citizenship and registering them to vote, and 3) if you do it enough you've "elected a new people".  Maybe one not quite as ingrateful or demanding or troublesome as the current white/black underclass.  Even if some of that isn't true, you just need to look at CA as a GOP'er to say I'm not letting that happen to the rest of the country.

The bill that should be able to be passed would rest on three legs.  Leg 1: The path to citizenship is a long one (i.e. 20 years).  That is roughly what it is through having that anchor baby, and that gives plenty of time for the illegal to both become an american and for their 2nd generations to start looking more like the average american than the game changing wave.  Leg 2: The legal immigration "line" is expanded in clear ways.  First, if you are coming for agricultural reasons (i.e. to the great middle of the country) come right in.  Second, if you have a job already, go to the head of the line.  Third, if you are just coming to compete at low wage city work, the line forms here.  Leg 3: The mishmash of gov't welfare programs must be simplified or just cut.  Diversity is a low trust situation.  Every study shows this.  If you want diversity without strife, the benefits must go down.  If you want high benefits that go with a high trust state, then you can't have diversity.  The democrats would get a huge wave of immigrant potential voters, just not immediately.  The GOP would get skilled immigration and something that addresses the rural to urban shift.  Both parties would have to confront the reality of the diversity mantra and that the budget is already broke.

But moving such a bill would require a legislature (Art 1) that was looking for the compromise, an executive (Art 2) that wasn't governing in large sweeps like DACA and holding the country hostage by executive order what should be legislative, and a judiciary that wasn't in full #resistance mode demanding that clearly unconstitutional actions be continued and in other ways simply attempting to both legislate and demand compliance from a bench in some deep blue area.  So, my guess, nothing happens.  And we go through intermittent screaming efforts near election seasons, until the wave of 20 year old former anchor babies starts to crest.

Dave Benke

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2018, 08:45:52 PM »
The problem of immigration today (as it was in prior eras) is a political one.  What I mean by that is that immigrants change or upset the status quo balance of power in a presumably predictable way.  The DEM's trumpet ("Make America California" demographic wave) and the GOP assumes that when thy come they do three things: 1) move to a city which are largely "blue model", 2) the "blue model" machine gets them all enrolled in every possible gov't program while getting them citizenship and registering them to vote, and 3) if you do it enough you've "elected a new people".  Maybe one not quite as ingrateful or demanding or troublesome as the current white/black underclass.  Even if some of that isn't true, you just need to look at CA as a GOP'er to say I'm not letting that happen to the rest of the country.

The bill that should be able to be passed would rest on three legs.  Leg 1: The path to citizenship is a long one (i.e. 20 years).  That is roughly what it is through having that anchor baby, and that gives plenty of time for the illegal to both become an american and for their 2nd generations to start looking more like the average american than the game changing wave.  Leg 2: The legal immigration "line" is expanded in clear ways.  First, if you are coming for agricultural reasons (i.e. to the great middle of the country) come right in.  Second, if you have a job already, go to the head of the line.  Third, if you are just coming to compete at low wage city work, the line forms here.  Leg 3: The mishmash of gov't welfare programs must be simplified or just cut.  Diversity is a low trust situation.  Every study shows this.  If you want diversity without strife, the benefits must go down.  If you want high benefits that go with a high trust state, then you can't have diversity.  The democrats would get a huge wave of immigrant potential voters, just not immediately.  The GOP would get skilled immigration and something that addresses the rural to urban shift.  Both parties would have to confront the reality of the diversity mantra and that the budget is already broke.

But moving such a bill would require a legislature (Art 1) that was looking for the compromise, an executive (Art 2) that wasn't governing in large sweeps like DACA and holding the country hostage by executive order what should be legislative, and a judiciary that wasn't in full #resistance mode demanding that clearly unconstitutional actions be continued and in other ways simply attempting to both legislate and demand compliance from a bench in some deep blue area.  So, my guess, nothing happens.  And we go through intermittent screaming efforts near election seasons, until the wave of 20 year old former anchor babies starts to crest.

In my experience, your first paragraph is where the wrong-headedness kicks in.  Yes, a lot of immigrants head to big cities.  Why is that done?  Jobs.  Opportunity.  For themselves and their families.  The fact that these folks are perceived as invariably part of the Democratic Party is weird.  Because these migrants are in the enormous majority family people, with family values, who are often motivated in a religious/spiritual way as well. In other words, these would be natural members of the old Republican Party.  Except that the Republicans by and large don't even bother talking to them, so they wouldn't know that.  Those who are Christians are often either Roman Catholic or Pentecostal, with conservative moral values.  If the GOP showed interest in immigrants as a potential future voting block, they could easily move these folks into their camp.  But that's not the way it has worked, and is one of the reasons for the inevitable stalemate. 

Dave Benke

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2018, 12:52:37 AM »
The GOP has been hearing that Hispanics are a natural conservative constituency for a long time primarily do to religion.  Here is the thing.  They aren't American Catholics that went through both JFK and John Courtney Murray.  They are Latin American Catholics (or Pentecostals) who have long equated Catholicism with at least socialism if not Marxist economic ideas.  They also tend to have a deep anti-clerical streak, at least Mexicans.  What all that translates into is a 50/50 group at best.  But even in Texas which has the best GOP performance it tends to peak around 40%.  When you tack on the fact that once you get to America and are ensconced in our environment, the church is incredibly weak.  I think all the research shows that people end up in a church (or out of them) on the basis of their politics, not changing their politics on the basis of a church.  And when you are talking about adding 20M+ to the voting rolls in some key states that old natural constituency canard just doesn't look that good.

Personally, I think people integrate faster than you might think.  What gets defined as "white" is ever changing.  In the 18th century it was English.  In the 19th Century it stated to accept Germans and Italians.  In the 20th century the Eastern Europeans and the upper class South American Hispanics.  My best guess is that by 2040, unless Democrat/La Raza identity politics are successful in building their permanent ethnic identity spoils system, "white" will fully include most Hispanics.  If the GOP was really smart it would simply say as long as the path to citizenship is 20 years long, we don't care.  The overriding issue of the age is that ethnic spoils identity politics must be killed now.  That stuff will rip us apart in no time.

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Dan Fienen

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2018, 08:31:47 AM »
Two problems with Pres. Trump: He isnít as smart as he thinks he is, and Heís smarter than his critics think he is.  This makes it hard to actually work on solutions.  He tends to dismiss the ideas of others and those others tend to simply dismiss his ideas.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:01:21 AM by Dan Fienen »
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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 09:55:28 AM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ted-cruz-emergency-legislation-to-end-family-separation/

Now, will Democrats, and Republicans, work together to take care of these children or will they hold out to score ideological and political points at their expense?
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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2018, 10:07:17 AM »
David Brooks today on abuse by the deep administrative state:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/18/opinion/amnesty-deportation-immigration-family-separation.html?rref=collection%2Fissuecollection%2Ftodays-new-york-times&action=click&contentCollection=todayspaper&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=4&pgtype=collection

Peace, JOHN

Another example of just how broken the immigration system is in the US.  This is not acceptable, but neither is a system that basically just lets people self-select for entrance in the US.  That is a tragedy.  But so are the people, including children who have become victimized by illegal immigrants who perpetuate crime, such as the MS 13 gangs and individual illegal immigrants who through carelessness, intoxication or criminality spread tragedy in their wake.  The way we were doing immigration before Trump's crackdowns wasn't working either.  Fixing it is going to be difficult and neither the right or the left, the Democrats nor the Republicans will be able to get things just the way they want it.  There is no perfect system out there just waiting to be enacted.  But a workable system that humanely treats those seeking a better life in the US, fleeing horrors, and that protects those already legal residents of the US and does not expose those seeking to enter the US to exploitation (which the old system did) must be crafted.  It won't be easy and no side in this mess will get everything that they would like.  But, life is complicated.
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 10:13:05 AM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ted-cruz-emergency-legislation-to-end-family-separation/

Now, will Democrats, and Republicans, work together to take care of these children or will they hold out to score ideological and political points at their expense?
Unlikely, because they disagree on the proper solution, as our discussion here reaffirms...

D:  release both children and parents together into the United States pending an immigration status hearing
R:  detain children and parents together at the border pending an immigration status hearing

And so the gridlock continues, and both sides demagogue the issue.

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2018, 10:17:03 AM »
Where do you spend most of your time? 

https://ndoherty.com/circle-of-influence-circle-of-concern/


Jeremy Loesch

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2018, 10:33:05 AM »
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ted-cruz-emergency-legislation-to-end-family-separation/

Now, will Democrats, and Republicans, work together to take care of these children or will they hold out to score ideological and political points at their expense?

Since this whole thing is just a game to our ruling class, nothing will be done to impede the point scoring. 

Jeremy
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: U.S. Immigration - Problems/Solutions
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2018, 10:42:41 AM »
David Brooks today on abuse by the deep administrative state:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/18/opinion/amnesty-deportation-immigration-family-separation.html?rref=collection%2Fissuecollection%2Ftodays-new-york-times&action=click&contentCollection=todayspaper&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=4&pgtype=collection

Peace, JOHN

Another example of just how broken the immigration system is in the US.  This is not acceptable, but neither is a system that basically just lets people self-select for entrance in the US.  That is a tragedy.  But so are the people, including children who have become victimized by illegal immigrants who perpetuate crime, such as the MS 13 gangs and individual illegal immigrants who through carelessness, intoxication or criminality spread tragedy in their wake.  The way we were doing immigration before Trump's crackdowns wasn't working either.  Fixing it is going to be difficult and neither the right or the left, the Democrats nor the Republicans will be able to get things just the way they want it.  There is no perfect system out there just waiting to be enacted.  But a workable system that humanely treats those seeking a better life in the US, fleeing horrors, and that protects those already legal residents of the US and does not expose those seeking to enter the US to exploitation (which the old system did) must be crafted.  It won't be easy and no side in this mess will get everything that they would like.  But, life is complicated.


Neither have we been able to eliminate gangs of Americans committing crimes. Gangs and gang violence is a separate issue from immigration reform.
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