A different take on the guns and schools debate

[peter_speckhard]

If a thousand migrants were bussed to Charles's living facility and lounged around in the halls and cafeteria, we'd soon see how much compassion he has vs. how much compassion he demands border towns have.

I am fully willing to help a migrant gain legal status. My complaint is the lame moral high-horse from which people issue condemnations of those who want to close the border. When you say they lack compassion, they don't know the facts, they're xenophobic nativists, you're just making a fool of yourself. None of those are the reason a large segment of the population wants the border closed. But self-righteous people bent on judging others can always find a racist, a compassionless person, or an ignoramus to hold up as an example of who they meant.   

[John_Hannah]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don't have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don't want if it doesn't pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don't want. They only don't want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

At today's very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

[peter_speckhard]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don't have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don't want if it doesn't pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don't want. They only don't want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

At today's very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

No it wouldn't. We have record numbers of working age people out of the workforce. They just aren't going to be enticed back in for a wage that suits a Third World refugee.

High school kids aren't taking jobs like they used to, for one thing. Every job will get done at the right price. Bringing in hundreds of thousands if not millions of desperate poor people substantially lowers the price at which the job gets filled.

[Bill Timm]

Yuma pastors attended the meeting at City Hall, yesterday.
No one at the state or federal level has a plan for handling the surge that will come when Title 42 expires on Thursday.
Under Title 42, there were 7-10 flights/week out of Yuma for repatriation back to their own countries.
Right now, 660,000 are waiting to cross from Mexico.
Entrances through the Panama crossing zone are up 550%.
There are border rushes in the area where 200 rush the border crossing at one time and most get away.
FEMA is out of money and doesn't get anymore until September.
Our senators are trying to keep the $ we need from going to NYC, because the border is the epicenter of the crisis.
300/day were crossing in Yuma in April.
That moved up to 600/day recently.
On Sunday, it went up to 1,000/day.
Monday at 8 am there were already 500.
Estimates for Thursday range from 1,500/day up to 6,000/day.
Our borders are simply being overrun and there is no end in sight as people are given $800 benefit cards renewed every month/person.
Regional Center for Border Health cannot handle those numbers.
The mix of people changes each week, but involves India, China, Eastern European, Russian, Ukraine, SW Asia, Middle East, etc.
In 2019, there was a surge involving very poor people coming with a bag of clothes in their hand.
Today, these groups are mostly coming with cell phones, Gucci luggage, and several take Uber's to Phoenix.
Most of this migration is economic or for economic opportunity and has nothing to do with persecution/asylum.
The troops sent to the border are worthless, if they cannot do anything but watch.

[Mark Brown]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don't have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don't want if it doesn't pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don't want. They only don't want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

At today's very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

No it wouldn't. We have record numbers of working age people out of the workforce. They just aren't going to be enticed back in for a wage that suits a Third World refugee.

High school kids aren't taking jobs like they used to, for one thing. Every job will get done at the right price. Bringing in hundreds of thousands if not millions of desperate poor people substantially lowers the price at which the job gets filled.

This, exactly. I am so tired of this cliche. Nothing like introducing millions of low skilled off the books laborers to completely kill wages at the entry and for many years higher up.  Try talking to some actual high schoolers and recently graduates about what the job market looks like.  And the million more waiting on the border for it to be totally open in a couple days won't help.

[Robert Johnson]

At today's very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

You do understand that the official "unemployment rate" has very little to do with the actual state of the economy?

Or maybe you don't.

[Dave Benke]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don't have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don't want if it doesn't pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don't want. They only don't want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

I don't think of any immigrant as a "poor schmuck," first of all.  Secondly, from Genesis through the Psalms through the New Testament, there is dignity in work.  Dignity in providing support for a family, dignity in getting education for the children, dignity in moving through society.  One of my great friends came to this country with nothing and limited family, took the gas station attendant job (like many immigrants in NYC, by the way), and through the course of years of, yes, hard work, came to own a car dealership.  Where he treats his employees with respect and dignity and where he manifests his Lutheran Christian faith daily.

What's ultimately the reality here is that immigrants take jobs.  They want to work.  They work hard.  Going off into some myopic economic theorizing is simply dehumanizing.  It is specifically not in the spirit of the Lutheran document presented by Kieschnick and Harrison.

Dave Benke

[peter_speckhard]

There is dignity in work, and the worker is worthy of his wages. The Third World standard directly competing with the American standard of living is what people object to. But I'll remember your point about how dehumanizing it is to argue against the "right to work" and for deliberate upward pressure on unskilled or semi-skilled labor wages. It sounds at least Red State-adjacent.

I'm for (legal) immigration on a massive scale because I think the imminent aging, then cratering of the population portends disaster. But many people I regularly converse with vehemently disagree. They  point out that it is easy for me to support immigration; it has no adverse effect of any kind on my salary or way of life. It unarguably has a huge adverse effect on many people's salary and way of life.

[Charles Austin]

Peter:
I'm for (legal) immigration on a massive scale because I think the imminent aging, then cratering of the population portends disaster.
Me:
I wonder why and how, but that's another topic.

Peter:
But many people I regularly converse with vehemently disagree.
Me:
And are they right? Because they disagree with you? That's a new idea.

Peter:
They point out that it is easy for me to support immigration; it has no adverse effect of any kind on my salary or way of life.
Me:
But immigration has positive effects on your life. Their presence (should) make your life  more varied, more interesting, more exposed to different languages and cultures of the larger world in which we live.

Peter:
It (immigration) unarguably has a huge adverse effect on many people's salary and way of life.
Me:
Where? How? And let's skip the nonsense about them hanging out in the hallways of retirement homes. In our broad civic society, we have space for them.

[Brian Stoffregen]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don't have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don't want if it doesn't pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don't want. They only don't want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

In our area, they are working jobs that Anglos don't want - picking lettuce and other crops. And the Mexican and Mexican-Americans who work the fields don't want the Anglos working, because they don't work fast enough.


As I recall, when the illegal workers in a meat packing plant were deported, the plant couldn't recruit enough workers to open to full capacity.

[John_Hannah]

At today's very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

You do understand that the official "unemployment rate" has very little to do with the actual state of the economy?

Or maybe you don't.

I make no claim to  have informed judgements about economics. Nor did I say anything of the sort.

Peace, JOHN

[peter_speckhard]

Peter:
I'm for (legal) immigration on a massive scale because I think the imminent aging, then cratering of the population portends disaster.
Me:
I wonder why and how, but that's another topic.

Peter:
But many people I regularly converse with vehemently disagree.
Me:
And are they right? Because they disagree with you? That's a new idea.

Peter:
They point out that it is easy for me to support immigration; it has no adverse effect of any kind on my salary or way of life.
Me:
But immigration has positive effects on your life. Their presence (should) make your life  more varied, more interesting, more exposed to different languages and cultures of the larger world in which we live.

Peter:
It (immigration) unarguably has a huge adverse effect on many people's salary and way of life.
Me:
Where? How? And let's skip the nonsense about them hanging out in the hallways of retirement homes. In our broad civic society, we have space for them.

If we had a central organizing committee assigning each immigrant certain township, sure, we could absorb millions with barely anyone noticing. That isn't how it works. Certain places get radically transformed while other places barely notice. I know you find central planing attractive anyway, but I don't.

Sorry, Hispanic immigration does not make life more varied. NW Indiana/Chicagoland already has huge Spanish speaking population. You may as well say an influx of North Dakotans would make Minnesota more varied. Again, it has nothing to do with race or language and everything to do with disparity of living standard/way of life. Our neighbors who play with my son are Mexican. Nobody cares.

For some reason when the topic is gentrification of old neighborhoods people manage to at least understand native resistance and objection to the transformation of the old familiar culture.

If you honestly, genuinely don't understand how an increase in the supply of labor puts downward pressure on wages, and if you truly don't think it happens, I guess I'll leave you to your thoughts. It is not so much an argument I'm making as a fact I'm stating. You, of course, with your comfort level with central planning and a command economy, will be satisfied if the federal government decrees what everyone must be paid regardless of supply and demand. "We" can afford to just give everyone money— problem solved.

I think immigration will benefit the USA in the long run and be harmful to the countries they're leaving, though in the short term it will be the opposite. My point is that those who object are not doing so out base motives, ignorance, or any of the other things some people here feel free to ascribe to them.

[Dave Benke]

There is dignity in work, and the worker is worthy of his wages. The Third World standard directly competing with the American standard of living is what people object to. But I'll remember your point about how dehumanizing it is to argue against the "right to work" and for deliberate upward pressure on unskilled or semi-skilled labor wages. It sounds at least Red State-adjacent.

I'm for (legal) immigration on a massive scale because I think the imminent aging, then cratering of the population portends disaster. But many people I regularly converse with vehemently disagree. They  point out that it is easy for me to support immigration; it has no adverse effect of any kind on my salary or way of life. It unarguably has a huge adverse effect on many people's salary and way of life.

Happy to hear you're for massive increase in immigration and a pathway to citizenship for those millions of folks.  That's always been a Republican party shibboleth because of a fear that those immigrants will be voting on the Democratic line.  I believe that not automatically to be the case, because if there were a Republican party functioning on family values it would be attractive to the great majority of those immigrants, who are here to further their families' welfare and opportunity.  The national leader of the Republican party presents an entirely different message.

The New York miracle that took place after we went bankrupt in the 70s was due in large part to - immigrants, many many of whom moved to Brooklyn and Queens and the Bronx, often to sketchy neighborhoods and who took the entrance level essential jobs that allowed their families to flourish.  In fact, a group close to my heart, the Guyanese, proved to be so hard working in Queens that the mayor of Schenectady, seeking to rebuild a devastated city after the corporate move-out of General Electric, invited and actually brought busloads of Guyanese up there to start a new life with very affordable inner city property available.  They did so and guess what?  Same result.  We sent a Guyanese, and more recently an African, pastor up there to take parishes with that opportunity for outreach. 

Dave Benke

I just

[DCharlton]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don't have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don't want if it doesn't pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don't want. They only don't want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

At today's very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

I agree.  A very conservative Republican who I knew, who is intimately involved in the trucking industry, told me that if you removed every illegal immigrant in the US, we would run out of food in two weeks.

What I can't understand is that, given that fact, our elected leaders have yet to find a way for those necessary workers to enter into our country and remain here legally.  Well, I actually do.  It's a charade played on us by our elected leaders. 

One side pretends that it wants to end illegal immigration.  It doesn't.  It wants people to come into our country illegally, rather than legally, so they can be exploited economically and politically.   The other side pretends that it wants to welcome immigrants and migrant workers into our county.  It does and it doesn't.  I wants people to come into our country, but to do so illegally, so that they can be exploited economically and politically.

A real solution would involve changing our laws so that the people who are necessary for our economy to function wouldn't have to live in fear.  Unfortunately, our elected leaders have too much to gain by changing nothing. 

[Dave Benke]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2020/06/10/a-majority-of-americans-say-immigrants-mostly-fill-jobs-u-s-citizens-do-not-want/

a) Over 3/4 of American citizens say undocumented immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want
b) Over half of American citizens say legal immigrants mostly fill jobs US citizens don't want.


The LCMS position for a long time, co-presented by President Kieschnick and head of Human Care Matt Harrison, has been to assist undocumented immigrants whenever possible to obtain legal status.

Dave Benke

So we should treat them as servants? Get the poor schmucks to come work for peanuts so we don't have to? That seems more conniving than compassionate. Every job is a job Americans don't want if it doesn't pay enough. Bringing in people with a third world standard of living definitely fills jobs nobody wants, but it leaves out the fact that the paycheck is why must people take jobs at all. Third World people in desperate straights competing with low skill American laborers is like scabs crossing picket lines. Again, I favor immigration, but it is unfair to argue they only take jobs Americans don't want. They only don't want them because they pay wages suitable for Third World refugees. If nobody here wants those jobs, it is because the salary being offered is not where supply of labor meets demand. One solution is to raise wages. Another is the flood the market with supply.

At today's very, very low unemployment rate, rejection of immigrants would only mean the jobs would not get filled

Peace, JOHN

I agree.  A very conservative Republican who I knew, who is intimately involved in the trucking industry, told me that if you removed every illegal immigrant in the US, we would run out of food in two weeks.

What I can't understand is that, given that fact, our elected leaders have yet to find a way for those necessary workers to enter into our country and remain here legally.  Well, I actually do.  It's a charade played on us by our elected leaders. 

One side pretends that it wants to end illegal immigration.  It doesn't.  It wants people to come into our country illegally, rather than legally, so they can be exploited economically and politically.   The other side pretends that it wants to welcome immigrants and migrant workers into our county.  It does and it doesn't.  I wants people to come into our country, but to do so illegally, so that they can be exploited economically and politically.

A real solution would involve changing our laws so that the people who are necessary for our economy to function wouldn't have to live in fear.  Unfortunately, our elected leaders have too much to gain by changing nothing.

Last sentence says it all.  I have participated in legislative days on behalf of LIRS, Lutheran Services in America and Lutheran World Relief many, many times.  What is done is that those who agree to come to the nation's capitol go through a workshop on issues of importance and then head off to those very large office buildings housing senators and congressmen.  Some serious walking is involved.  And invariably the meeting ends, on either side of the aisle, with - "I doubt we can get anything done in this legislative session, but our hopes are high for next fall."

One time the event was structured to involve LCMS legislators, so we met at the Republican Club, hosted by one of our congressional occupants.   Same ending to the meeting as above, but an honest dialog took place in between.

Dave Benke