Author Topic: Sowing seeds of doubt  (Read 2910 times)

readselerttoo

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2018, 01:02:59 PM »
Pastor Fienen goes on:
Thank you for being open about your position.  I do, however, think that it conflicts with your also oft stated desire for nobody to leave the ELCA over this issue and bewilderment as to why they might think that they need to.
I comment:
I am not bewildered. I know why they leave.

Pastor Fienen:
Is there really a welcoming place in your ELCA for those who continue to hold to the first or second positions identified in HSGT?
I comment:
I would say yes, but let us look at the situation. Anyone who stays in the ELCA is likely, in the near future or far future, to encounter married gays or lesbians, some of them congregational leaders who have been married in that church, some of them pastors in nearby congregations, some of them bishops of synods or assistants to bishops of synods. Can they accept the ministries of those people and work with them?
I do not believe that people holding positions that reject the lives of those people or do not recognize their marriages should be driven out. And, it would seem, that more "tolerance" may be required of them than is required of some others in our fellowship.

Well, pin a rose on you for being so "tolerant."


Yes.  These are politically-driven issues.  Toleration is a quality that cannot be divorced from life under the law.  If folks on the "Christian" liberal left could see that their own values are not driven by the unique Gospel of the New Testament but by their chosen understanding of what they believe that Gospel to be, then we might find some common ground on which to dialogue.  My identity as a moderate conservative is driven by values I believe to be right and just under the law as one who lives under the law..  I just don't see any social value to them unless I am at the voting booth or at a cocktail party or operating within my arena in the natural orders.

Charles Austin

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2018, 01:22:46 PM »
Based on your comments here, Pastor Rahn, I don’t think you see the value of anything but the law.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

readselerttoo

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2018, 01:57:35 PM »
Based on your comments here, Pastor Rahn, I don’t think you see the value of anything but the law.


See my comments over on the Misue of Scripture thread. 

Pr. Austin I believe your values are just as law-based as mine.  Based on what you write on this forum, I just do not think that you see that your values are such.  We speak as those who are under the law.  See Romans 3:19-20.

However APART FROM LAW...see Romans 3:21ff...God in Christ through His death into which we are baptized has offered something mutually exclusive from the law. 

(Now watch the liberal agenda take what God has offered and turn it into a political agenda!  What blasphemy)

They then call that co-option of God's gift sanctification!
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 02:00:50 PM by George Rahn »

readselerttoo

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2018, 02:07:47 PM »
Pastor Fienen goes on:
Thank you for being open about your position.  I do, however, think that it conflicts with your also oft stated desire for nobody to leave the ELCA over this issue and bewilderment as to why they might think that they need to.
I comment:
I am not bewildered. I know why they leave.

Pastor Fienen:
Is there really a welcoming place in your ELCA for those who continue to hold to the first or second positions identified in HSGT?
I comment:
I would say yes, but let us look at the situation. Anyone who stays in the ELCA is likely, in the near future or far future, to encounter married gays or lesbians, some of them congregational leaders who have been married in that church, some of them pastors in nearby congregations, some of them bishops of synods or assistants to bishops of synods. Can they accept the ministries of those people and work with them?
I do not believe that people holding positions that reject the lives of those people or do not recognize their marriages should be driven out. And, it would seem, that more "tolerance" may be required of them than is required of some others in our fellowship.

Well, pin a rose on you for being so "tolerant."

 :D...... >:(

readselerttoo

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2018, 02:10:57 PM »
Based on your comments here, Pastor Rahn, I don’t think you see the value of anything but the law.


...back at 'ya, dude.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2018, 03:29:15 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
From what Pr. Austin said in his response to me and the comments that he has consistently made on this topic it becomes apparent that he rejects, at least in part, what HSGT said at this point.

I comment:
Perhaps I do; and as we have said before, it is ok to disagree with an ELCA social statement.
But the honorable interlocutor will, of course, take the last word.

I was considering what you said here about the ELCA social statement, that it is OK to disagree with it and (implied) not act according to it.


Does that mean that those whose bound-consciences agree with the first or second positions as identified are also free to disagree with HSGT's call to exercise profound respect for the conscience-bound beliefs of those in the ELCA who hold the third or fourth positions?  So that they do not need to recognize as legitimately ordained partnered homosexual pastors in neighboring parishes or the authority of partnered homosexual bishops over them?  HSGT was, as you affirm not legislative but only advisory and not mandatory.
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Charles Austin

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2018, 05:59:15 PM »
Not diving down any of those “gotcha“ rabbit holes, Pastor Fienen. I consider your “concern” to be disingenuous.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Just finished six great days in a beach house on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, with a bunch of friends and relatives. About 18 of us, and the young folks did all the cooking.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2018, 09:06:00 PM »
So if you know your children are living together and having sex, what the heck difference does it make if they sleep together in your own house?  Is this “pretend“ situation real?
Tell you the truth, I doubt that young people who knew their parents didn’t approve of their “situation“ would be having noisy, bang-bang, Wall-rattling sex in their parent’s house anyway.
This whole thing of respecting the opinion of others you just don’t get, do you.


We get it very well. However, you cannot make your children respect your opinions. You can only respect theirs. As much as you might want others to respect yours, you can't make it happen.



"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2018, 09:11:04 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
From what Pr. Austin said in his response to me and the comments that he has consistently made on this topic it becomes apparent that he rejects, at least in part, what HSGT said at this point.

I comment:
Perhaps I do; and as we have said before, it is ok to disagree with an ELCA social statement.
But the honorable interlocutor will, of course, take the last word.



Thank you for being open about your position.  I do, however, think that it conflicts with your also oft stated desire for nobody to leave the ELCA over this issue and bewilderment as to why they might think that they need to.  Is there really a welcoming place in your ELCA for those who continue to hold to the first or second positions identified in HSGT?


Yes. There are congregations who have declared that their pastor will not officiate at same-sex marriages; that same-sex marriages will not be held in their building. I'm pretty sure that there are congregations who would not accept a gay pastor as an interim should the synod recommend one.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2018, 09:13:55 PM »
It seems very rude for a guest to demand things of his host that he knows are objectionable to the host.  When I visit my father, or my mother-in-law, I do not smoke in their homes because I know they find it objectionable.  They have never told me that I may not smoke in their homes; I just refrain because it is the polite and courteous thing to do.  It IS their home, after all, not mine.


What if they told you that you cannot smoke at all while you are visiting them? They don't like the smell it leaves on your breath or your clothes? Could you handle abstaining during the whole visit?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2018, 09:14:44 PM »
Pastor Fienen:
From what Pr. Austin said in his response to me and the comments that he has consistently made on this topic it becomes apparent that he rejects, at least in part, what HSGT said at this point.

I comment:
Perhaps I do; and as we have said before, it is ok to disagree with an ELCA social statement.
But the honorable interlocutor will, of course, take the last word.

I was considering what you said here about the ELCA social statement, that it is OK to disagree with it and (implied) not act according to it.


Does that mean that those whose bound-consciences agree with the first or second positions as identified are also free to disagree with HSGT's call to exercise profound respect for the conscience-bound beliefs of those in the ELCA who hold the third or fourth positions?  So that they do not need to recognize as legitimately ordained partnered homosexual pastors in neighboring parishes or the authority of partnered homosexual bishops over them?  HSGT was, as you affirm not legislative but only advisory and not mandatory.


Yup, there are those who have done that.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2018, 10:19:55 PM »
So if you know your children are living together and having sex, what the heck difference does it make if they sleep together in your own house?  Is this “pretend“ situation real?
Tell you the truth, I doubt that young people who knew their parents didn’t approve of their “situation“ would be having noisy, bang-bang, Wall-rattling sex in their parent’s house anyway.
This whole thing of respecting the opinion of others you just don’t get, do you.


We get it very well. However, you cannot make your children respect your opinions. You can only respect theirs. As much as you might want others to respect yours, you can't make it happen.
Nor can you make parents respect the opinions of their children.  Respect and disrespect can go both ways.


What we can do as pastors is when we are called in to counsel or mediate situations affirm the need for both sides to offer respect as well as expect respect, point out that demanding respect without offering it in turn can have unpleasant consequences and help them all find ways to respect each other and show that respect.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2018, 10:23:31 PM »
It seems very rude for a guest to demand things of his host that he knows are objectionable to the host.  When I visit my father, or my mother-in-law, I do not smoke in their homes because I know they find it objectionable.  They have never told me that I may not smoke in their homes; I just refrain because it is the polite and courteous thing to do.  It IS their home, after all, not mine.


What if they told you that you cannot smoke at all while you are visiting them? They don't like the smell it leaves on your breath or your clothes? Could you handle abstaining during the whole visit?

As I said, they have never told me that I cannot smoke in their homes.  I know their feelings and respect/accommodate them, since they are their homes and not mine.  And yes, I have abstained from smoking entirely while visiting. 

Dan Fienen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2018, 10:24:58 PM »
How would you, any of you, counsel a situation where the child is more traditional than the parent?  It could happen, does happen.  A parent is widowed or divorced and takes a lover (same or opposite sex) and comes for a visit.  What do you suggest?  (I have actually dealt with such a situation.)
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Sowing seeds of doubt
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2018, 10:31:58 PM »
Interesting story and totally off the track except it involves smoking.  Part of the time my not yet wife went to college she lived at home and worked part time at a drug store.  One evening her parents very solemnly sat down with her and confronted her about her smoking.  They tally did not want her addicted and were also concerned that she was sneaking it.  She denied it.  They responded sorrowfully that it was no good denying it, they could smell the tobacco on her hands and clothes.  Her response, and it was truthful, she worked at the tobacco counter and handled it throughout her shift.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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