Author Topic: Misuse of scripture  (Read 7635 times)

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #180 on: June 20, 2018, 01:33:46 PM »
I think that nearly everyone supports keeping families together while their immigration cases are decided.  Current law makes that a challenge.  Congress seems likely to pass legislation to address this problem, so long as a minority don't stop the legislation for partisan reasons.
I guess you mean the Senate minority leader:

But Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader, immediately shot down the Republican approach, saying that Mr. Trump could — and should — use his executive authority, not legislation, to quickly end the family separations.

New York Times, June 19, 2018: "G.O.P. Moves to End Trump’s Family Separation Policy, but Can’t Agree How"

His idea is problematic because there is a good faith reason to believe the situation cannot be adequately rectified without a change in the law.  But of course, Democrats never play politics with an issue that can effect people in dire situations.

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James_Gale

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #181 on: June 20, 2018, 01:39:42 PM »
Do you propose that anyone, including those who don't meet the international and US standards for asylum, should be permitted to stay and live in the US? 

No. Just the tired, the poor, those yearning to breath free, the wretched refuse from teeming shores, the homeless and tempest tossed. Just them.


But realistically, they can't all come.  Many can.  We should welcome that.  Always.  But actually making laws governing those who enter illegally is complicated.  In no small part this is because some will suffer and even die as a result of any policy we set.  How then do we accomplish the greater good and avoid the greater harm, while remaining true to our nation's ideals?


Emma Lazarus most assuredly does not answer this question. 


That said, I join with most Americans in opposing the separation of parents from children. 



MaddogLutheran

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #182 on: June 20, 2018, 01:44:57 PM »
These accounts are potentially troubling, to say the least.  However, the stories I've seen are sourced in a way that leaves me with as many questions as conclusions.  We don't have the full truth here.

This is my problem with commenting on any of this...I don't trust I know the specifics on the ground.  I can certainly comment on the law, or past practice, but I don't believe either side is fairly reporting what is currently happening.  And for asylum cases, those details certainly matter.

I have no idea how many of these people might have legitimate asylum claims.  But I don't believe all of them do.  Likewise I don't believe a significant percentage of the children at the border are being brought by human traffickers or other evil doers, but I can't say the number is zero.  That leads to the question how to tell the difference, especially if (as Pr. Stoffregen likes to suggest) that they lack any documentation?  There are no easy answers here.  But neither were there in 2014, with the difference that nobody made a cause celebre of this when Obama was president and immigrants at the border were put first in cages.  Funny that.  That's why I have no patience for the current partisan posturing over all this.  I'm fully willing to agree that Trump has acted badly and his administration is culpable, or that Obama deserves no criticism for his handling of an earlier border immigrant crisis.  My issue is that the some of the people outraged now were all but silent in 2014.

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« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 01:47:48 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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gan ainm

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #183 on: June 20, 2018, 01:51:54 PM »
Do you propose that anyone, including those who don't meet the international and US standards for asylum, should be permitted to stay and live in the US? 

No. Just the tired, the poor, those yearning to breath free, the wretched refuse from teeming shores, the homeless and tempest tossed. Just them.
Is that what we're doing?  Perhaps, because as I noted previously, longstanding U.S. law does not authorize asylum for economic hardship refugees.  I'll repeat Pr. Tibbetts prior question to ask this another way:  are we supposed to let in anyone who can make it to the border?

Sterling Spatz

I think what is being proposed by the "bring them all in" folks is a United States with no borders.  Even the New Jerusalem has walls - not everyone will get in.  For those who accept the authority of Scripture, I'd be very fearful of being an abortion provider, one who endorses sexual immorality (a.k.a. sex other than in a one man/one woman marriage), a sex trafficker, being my own god, etc.  For those who do not accept the authority and clear words of Scripture, i.e. those who do not believe Christ has declared them justified for his sake ..... they are likely eternally lost.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”  9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed— .... 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 01:54:17 PM by gan ainm »

Voelker

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #184 on: June 20, 2018, 02:13:22 PM »
Do you propose that anyone, including those who don't meet the international and US standards for asylum, should be permitted to stay and live in the US? 

No. Just the tired, the poor, those yearning to breath free, the wretched refuse from teeming shores, the homeless and tempest tossed. Just them.
Not to argue with your point, but it should be hoped that a sentimental poem would not be the guiding star for a nation's policies.

readselerttoo

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #185 on: June 20, 2018, 02:16:01 PM »
These accounts are potentially troubling, to say the least.  However, the stories I've seen are sourced in a way that leaves me with as many questions as conclusions.  We don't have the full truth here.

This is my problem with commenting on any of this...I don't trust I know the specifics on the ground.  I can certainly comment on the law, or past practice, but I don't believe either side is fairly reporting what is currently happening.  And for asylum cases, those details certainly matter.

I have no idea how many of these people might have legitimate asylum claims.  But I don't believe all of them do.  Likewise I don't believe a significant percentage of the children at the border are being brought by human traffickers or other evil doers, but I can't say the number is zero.  That leads to the question how to tell the difference, especially if (as Pr. Stoffregen likes to suggest) that they lack any documentation?  There are no easy answers here.  But neither were there in 2014, with the difference that nobody made a cause celebre of this when Obama was president and immigrants at the border were put first in cages.  Funny that.  That's why I have no patience for the current partisan posturing over all this.  I'm fully willing to agree that Trump has acted badly and his administration is culpable, or that Obama deserves no criticism for his handling of an earlier border immigrant crisis.  My issue is that the some of the people outraged now were all but silent in 2014.

Sterling Spatz

The above are sober comments among a seemingly hysterical few who think they know the whole story (because of the evil and bad Trump administration!) and so comment accordingly.  Fake news can distort and does distort the facts.  I live in southwest Texas and know a little more than the eastern seaboard newspapers indicate through their reportage.

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #186 on: June 20, 2018, 02:19:45 PM »
"Not to argue with your point, but it should be hoped that a sentimental poem would not be the guiding star for a nation's policies."

Right... sentimental poetry should never lead anything... even Psalm 23 the casket.  Right!
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Voelker

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #187 on: June 20, 2018, 02:34:04 PM »
"Not to argue with your point, but it should be hoped that a sentimental poem would not be the guiding star for a nation's policies."

Right... sentimental poetry should never lead anything... even Psalm 23 the casket.  Right!
That's not sentimental poetry; that's the Word of God. Don't confuse the two.

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #188 on: June 20, 2018, 03:27:18 PM »
Yes it is the Word of God.  Yes, it is poetry.  Yes, it is heavy with sentiment, emotion ... just ask those who request it for funerals.  Try saying no. 

Sentimental can have the connotation of excessive feeling and tenderness... but the dictionary allows it to be just feeling and tenderness as a first definition ...
Harvey S. Mozolak
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http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

Voelker

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #189 on: June 20, 2018, 04:04:29 PM »
Yes it is the Word of God.  Yes, it is poetry.  Yes, it is heavy with sentiment, emotion ... just ask those who request it for funerals.  Try saying no. 

Sentimental can have the connotation of excessive feeling and tenderness... but the dictionary allows it to be just feeling and tenderness as a first definition ...
That is a possible reading.

John Mundinger

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Re: Misuse of scripture
« Reply #190 on: June 21, 2018, 10:44:28 AM »
In justifying the practice of taking children away from their parents, Attorney General Sessions has publicly "preached" one of the greatest misuses of scripture in recent times.
"Persons who violate the law of our nation are subject to prosecution. I would cite you to the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13 to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained them for the purpose of order," Sessions said. "Orderly and lawful processes are good in themselves and protect the weak and lawful."
On this basis, the Attorney General says children can be taken from the care of their parents and put into the hands of the state.
Even some of the evangelicals who have been cozy with the current administration are opposing this.

This is a Bonhoeffer moment.  It is time for all red blooded American patriots to grab their Bible in one hand, a flag in the other and stand up to advocate appeasement!
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine