Author Topic: When did Jesus become fully human?  (Read 1779 times)

Matt Hummel

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When did Jesus become fully human?
« on: January 25, 2018, 10:09:00 AM »
Christians have traditionally taught in regards to soteriology that only that which is assumed (by Christ) can be saved. We believe that Jesus is fully human.

So- at what point did the Divine Logos take on his full humanity? As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question. But I would be interested in what others, especially those who are "pro-choice but anti-abortion" would say.
Matt Hummel


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readselerttoo

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2018, 10:33:47 AM »
In the Unaltered Augsburg Confession it states that the Son of God took on human flesh in the womb of the blessed Virgin Mary.   Kinda puts a case forward for pro-life IMO

David Garner

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2018, 12:01:41 PM »
Christians have traditionally taught in regards to soteriology that only that which is assumed (by Christ) can be saved. We believe that Jesus is fully human.

So- at what point did the Divine Logos take on his full humanity? As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question. But I would be interested in what others, especially those who are "pro-choice but anti-abortion" would say.

I fear this leads us into one of those discussions where, before it's over, someone is going to be using a speculum on the Blessed Virgin to see where in the mechanical process we are.

But you are correct, the celebration of the Annunciation seems as reasonable a place as any to mark Christ's becoming human. 

For what it's worth, the Troparion and Kontakion for the Annunciation are as follows:

Troparion (Tone 4) –

Today is the beginning of our salvation,
The revelation of the eternal mystery!
The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin
As Gabriel announces the coming of Grace.
Together with him let us cry to the Theotokos:
Rejoice, O Full of Grace,
The Lord is with You!

Kontakion (Tone 8)

O Victorious Leader of Triumphant Hosts!
We, your servants, delivered from evil, sing our grateful thanks to you, O Theotokos!
As you possess invincible might, set us free from every calamity
So that we may sing: Rejoice, O unwedded Bride!


Note:  "The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin AS Gabriel announces the coming of Grace.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Harry Edmon

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2018, 02:08:13 PM »
Another example of Christ's "humiliation".   He starts His humanity as a one cell human being.  Can't get more humble than that!
Harry Edmon, Ph.D., LCMS Layman

Matt Hummel

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2018, 02:56:04 PM »
Another example of Christ's "humiliation".   He starts His humanity as a one cell human being.  Can't get more humble than that!

Harry- I am jealous of the power of your statement. Thanks!
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2018, 04:40:13 PM »
As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question.

As an unrepentant non-papist, I always celebrate March 25 for the same reason. That single cell Baby in the Virgin's womb is the Savior of the world.

Harry Edmon

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2018, 04:58:58 PM »
As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question.

As an unrepentant non-papist, I always celebrate March 25 for the same reason. That single cell Baby in the Virgin's womb is the Savior of the world.
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.
Harry Edmon, Ph.D., LCMS Layman

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2018, 05:36:40 PM »
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.


The challenge is easily solved by pairing this Gerhardt text with the St. Theodulph tune commonly associated with All Glory, Laud, and Honor

"O Lord, How Shall I Meet Thee"
by Paul Gerhardt, 1607-1676


1. O Lord, how shall I meet Thee,
How welcome Thee aright?
Thy people long to greet Thee,
My Hope, my heart's Delight!
O kindle, Lord, most holy,
Thy lamp within my breast
To do in spirit lowly
All that may please Thee best.

2. Thy Zion strews before Thee
Green boughs and fairest palms,
And I, too, will adore Thee
With joyous songs and psalms.
My heart shall bloom forever
For Thee with praises new
And from Thy name shall never
Withhold the honor due.

3. I lay in fetters, groaning,
Thou com'st to set me free;
I stood, my shame bemoaning,
Thou com'st to honor me;
A glory Thou dost give me,
A treasure safe on high,
That will not fail or leave me
As earthly riches fly.

4. Love caused Thy incarnation,
Love brought Thee down to me;
Thy thirst for my salvation
Procured my liberty.
O love beyond all telling,
That led Thee to embrace,
In love all love excelling,
Our lost and fallen race!

5. Rejoice, then, ye sad-hearted,
Who sit in deepest gloom,
Who mourn o'er joys departed
And tremble at your doom.
Despair not, He is near you,
Yea, standing at the door,
Who best can help and cheer you
And bids you weep no more.

6. Ye need not toil nor languish
Nor ponder day and night
How in the midst of anguish
Ye draw Him by your might.
He comes, He comes all willing,
Moved by His love alone,
Your woes and troubles stilling;
For all to Him are known.

7. Sin's debt, that fearful burden,
Let not your souls distress;
Your guilt the Lord will pardon
And cover by His grace.
He comes, for men procuring
The peace of sin forgiven,
For all God's sons securing
Their heritage in heaven.

8. What though the foes be raging,
Heed not their craft and spite;
Your Lord, the battle waging,
Will scatter all their might.
He comes, a King most glorious,
And all His earthly foes
In vain His course victorious
Endeavor to oppose.

9. He comes to judge the nations,
A terror to His foes,
A Light of consolations
And blessed Hope to those
Who love the Lord's appearing.
O glorious Sun, now come,
Send forth Thy beams so cheering,
An guide us safely home.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 05:39:03 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2018, 05:48:35 PM »
Since Orthodox Pascha falls one week later than Western Easter this year, the Great Feast of the Annunciation will not coincide with Palm Sunday in the Orthodox Church, but rather with the Fifth Sunday of Great Lent which is normally devoted to Mary of Egypt.   

Mary of Egypt Sunday will be entirely suppressed for the Great Feast, however, her marvelous Vita set down by Patriarch Sophronios of Jerusalem will be read in its entirety in many parishes on the preceding Thursday (or Wednesday evening).

This incredible story of repentance and redemption can be read here:

http://www.antiochian.org/stmaryofegypt

Troparion – Tone 8

    The image of God was truly preserved in you, mother,
    for you took up the Cross and followed Christ.
    By so doing, you taught us to disregard the flesh, for it passes away,
    but to care instead for the soul, since it is immortal.
    Therefore your spirit, holy mother Mary, rejoices with the angels!

There is much to ponder about this "Sunday of Two Marys" and the contrast between the repentant harlot and the Unwedded Bride.   For the Unwedded Bride, the Cross taken up was the sword which pierced her soul.  For the repentant harlot, it was the extreme mortification of her once-sinful flesh.

Yet in through this contrast there is an excellent portal into the great mysteries of our redemption which are essence of Holy Week.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 12:43:04 AM by J. Thomas Shelley »
Greek Orthodox-Ecumenical Patriarchate

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015

Eileen Smith

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 06:34:04 PM »
As an unrepentant papist, I will celebrate the 25th of March in answer to that question.

As an unrepentant non-papist, I always celebrate March 25 for the same reason. That single cell Baby in the Virgin's womb is the Savior of the world.
Here is a challenge for pastors - this year March 25th is also Palm Sunday in the Western Church.  So work in the Annunciation and God becoming man into your Palm Sunday sermon. I just gave that challenge to my pastor.

Lutherans for Life has a page of resources for the Annunciation.  https://www.lutheransforlife.org/article/the-annunciation-of-our-lord-march-25/

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2018, 06:35:43 PM »
So I wonder what a self-identified Christian who is also pro-abortion (or, if he or she prefers, pro-"choice") might do with the Annunciation? Just another fetus that Mary could have done away with if there had been a Roe vs. Wade back then?

Charles Austin

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2018, 07:47:27 PM »
Yeah, that's it, Pastor Gard, you got it. Those of us who do not oppose the current laws regarding abortion think that every pregnant woman has to consider abortion. Nice way to derail the discussion about our Lord's humanity and get in a few more whacks at people who do not agree with you.
Can anything be discussed for more than four comments before it turns into this kind of get-the-awful-liberals nastiness? I doubt it.

Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

Matt Hummel

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2018, 08:17:42 PM »
Yeah, that's it, Pastor Gard, you got it. Those of us who do not oppose the current laws regarding abortion think that every pregnant woman has to consider abortion. Nice way to derail the discussion about our Lord's humanity and get in a few more whacks at people who do not agree with you.
Can anything be discussed for more than four comments before it turns into this kind of get-the-awful-liberals nastiness? I doubt it.

Can you actually ever answer the question to hand and not take personal umbrage? If you  don't like the topic, don't comment. You have freedom of choice in this matter.

When do you think Jesus became fully human, or does the answer cause any problems for you?
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Matt Hummel

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2018, 08:45:44 PM »
Well, with one apparent notable exception, there seems to be consensus as to when Jesus assumed full humanity. So then the next question is, when do we take on our full humanity? And what does that mean for the Church's witness in key issues?
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Steven W Bohler

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Re: When did Jesus become fully human?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2018, 09:04:51 PM »
Well, the Baby DID "threaten" her life: as an unmarried pregnant woman, whose fiancé was not the father of the Child, she could have been stoned to death, right?  So, under the arguments advanced by some here, Mary would have been justified in aborting the Child.