Author Topic: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven  (Read 14854 times)

David Garner

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #300 on: December 23, 2017, 05:18:59 PM »
Well, Mr.Garner, do we now have to know where someone stands on gun control (or any other civil issue) before we can sing a hymn that they have written?

Well, when it is a hymn advocating gun control, you already know.

The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?
That's not all it advocates.   Since you can't tell us how those "smarter people" would change laws to bring about the hymn's call for an end to violence because of guns, you can't speak authoritatively about any of this.  Which is the problem.  You're giving a blank check to right-thinking people in government.


No where does the song talk about "violence because of guns." It talks about violent weapons. Certainly that could include guns, but also many other weapons of violence. The biblical text for that day used stones to kill people. It seems to me that what the lyrics address is a violent attitude.

So when it says we should have legislation to curb guns’ awful toll, that means guns exact a non-violent, yet still awful, toll?

This is such a very odd route you’re taking to try and deny the obvious.


Absolutely, suicide is an awful toll, but it's not done out of violence. Accidental shootings are awful tolls, but not violent.

You don’t know what “violent” means.

Either that or this is just more dishonesty.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #301 on: December 23, 2017, 05:32:06 PM »
Well, Mr.Garner, do we now have to know where someone stands on gun control (or any other civil issue) before we can sing a hymn that they have written?

Well, when it is a hymn advocating gun control, you already know.

The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?
That's not all it advocates.   Since you can't tell us how those "smarter people" would change laws to bring about the hymn's call for an end to violence because of guns, you can't speak authoritatively about any of this.  Which is the problem.  You're giving a blank check to right-thinking people in government.


No where does the song talk about "violence because of guns." It talks about violent weapons. Certainly that could include guns, but also many other weapons of violence. The biblical text for that day used stones to kill people. It seems to me that what the lyrics address is a violent attitude.

So when it says we should have legislation to curb guns’ awful toll, that means guns exact a non-violent, yet still awful, toll?

This is such a very odd route you’re taking to try and deny the obvious.


Absolutely, suicide is an awful toll, but it's not done out of violence. Accidental shootings are awful tolls, but not violent.

You don’t know what “violent” means.

Either that or this is just more dishonesty.


It's an adjective. It describes something else. It is used of something intending to hurt, damage, or kill. An accidental shooting doesn't come because the shooter intended to hurt, damage, or kill.  It is used to describe a destructive emotional state. Someone can have a violent temper and not actually hurt, damage, or kill anything.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #302 on: December 23, 2017, 05:36:52 PM »
Keep digging, Brian.   ::)
Don Kirchner

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SomeoneWrites

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #303 on: December 23, 2017, 05:46:26 PM »
The hymn is about gun control.  It's not ALL about gun control, but it's in there. 
In the same way that a prayer asking Guidance for civil leaders, good health, and comfort for the afflicted, and forgiveness of sins is a prayer about good health.  It's not ALL about good health, but it's in there. 

To say otherwise is
1) intellectually dishonest
2) not using all the exegetical tools at one's disposal. 

Whether a hymn about gun control is a good/bad/helpful/unhelpful thing depends on the theology. 
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #304 on: December 23, 2017, 06:19:43 PM »
The hymn is about gun control.  It's not ALL about gun control, but it's in there.



Just as guns don't need legislation, they don't need to be controlled. It's people who need to be controlled. It's human violence that needs to be controlled. Legislations are nearly always to control people. The Law as Curb. That's quite Lutheran.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

SomeoneWrites

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #305 on: December 23, 2017, 06:21:37 PM »
The hymn is about gun control.  It's not ALL about gun control, but it's in there.



Just as guns don't need legislation, they don't need to be controlled. It's people who need to be controlled. It's human violence that needs to be controlled. Legislations are nearly always to control people. The Law as Curb. That's quite Lutheran.

The hymn is speaking about gun control legislation.  To say otherwise is
1) intellectually dishonest
or
2) not using all of one's exegetical tools. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #306 on: December 23, 2017, 06:28:38 PM »
[quote The Law as Curb. That's quite Lutheran.

Now it's getting downright humorous.
Don Kirchner

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James S. Rustad

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #307 on: December 23, 2017, 07:46:12 PM »
The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?

The hymn advocates an end to "gun violence" through legislation.  That phrase is generally used by those advocating gun control, as it is in this case.

There's an old, impolite saying that clearly applies here -- it ends with "...and tell me it's raining."

Matt Hummel

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #308 on: December 23, 2017, 08:09:34 PM »
[quote author=Brian Stoffregen link=topic=6878.msg435018#msg435018 date=151404689
The hymn advocates an end to violence - not gun control. Aren't you in favor of reducing violence in the world?

The hymn advocates an end to "gun violence" through legislation.  That phrase is generally used by those advocating gun control, as it is in this case.

There's an old, impolite saying that clearly applies here -- it ends with "...and tell me it's raining."
[/quote]

"Cease micturating on my dorsal surface while insisting that the local meteorlogical conditions call for precipitation."
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Richard Johnson

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Re: In Colorado, The Cake is in the Supreme Court oven
« Reply #309 on: December 24, 2017, 09:30:15 AM »
Why can't we come together and talk about curbing violence?

Great idea. Not the same as imposing a ridiculous lyric on worshipers during the liturgy.


What did your minister do the week after the mass shootings in Las Vegas? Was there any mention of the violence? Any recognition of the dozens who were killed and hundreds who were injured? What would you have done with a liturgy and sermons the week after one of the deadliest mass shootings in America?


I don't recall, but had I been presiding and preaching, I likely would have seen to it that a petition in the prayers referred to it; it might have been mentioned illustratively in the sermon if it were appropriate to the text.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS