Author Topic: Finding faith in the new progressive movement  (Read 4515 times)

James_Gale

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2017, 01:50:54 PM »
Was there not a time in our history when a Republican could be completely at home in the ELCA (or its predecessors) and a Democrat could be at home in the LCMS? 
Was there not a time when we checked our politics somewhere in the narthex? 
Wasn't any Lutheran church a sanctuary from party polarization?

Sad that we have lost it.

Peace, JOHN

I agree with this for the most part.  One of the nicest things about our current parish is we have people of all political stripes, and while we might disagree on politics, we do not anathematize each other over politics.

Everyone is still considered a Christian in good standing.  And beyond our parish, that includes people ranging from near net-confederate libertarians to actual communists.  So long as they are faithful to the Church first (meaning, neither Ayn Rand's nor Karl Marx's atheistic views are going to fit), we don't tend to view people as "less Christian" based on their political views.

That describes my parish as well.

Tom Brady still plays extremely well at 40.  I wouldn't bet against Rodgers doing the same. 
This describes John and my idea about our abilities in pastoral ministry.  Except substitute 70 or 75 for 40.  OK, substitute 80 for the sake of future options.  Don't bet against us!

Dave Benke


Not only will I not bet against you, I'll pray that the coming second half of your ministries be fruitful.

Dave Benke

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2017, 04:28:51 PM »
Was there not a time in our history when a Republican could be completely at home in the ELCA (or its predecessors) and a Democrat could be at home in the LCMS? 
Was there not a time when we checked our politics somewhere in the narthex? 
Wasn't any Lutheran church a sanctuary from party polarization?

Sad that we have lost it.

Peace, JOHN

I agree with this for the most part.  One of the nicest things about our current parish is we have people of all political stripes, and while we might disagree on politics, we do not anathematize each other over politics.

Everyone is still considered a Christian in good standing.  And beyond our parish, that includes people ranging from near net-confederate libertarians to actual communists.  So long as they are faithful to the Church first (meaning, neither Ayn Rand's nor Karl Marx's atheistic views are going to fit), we don't tend to view people as "less Christian" based on their political views.

That describes my parish as well.

Tom Brady still plays extremely well at 40.  I wouldn't bet against Rodgers doing the same. 
This describes John and my idea about our abilities in pastoral ministry.  Except substitute 70 or 75 for 40.  OK, substitute 80 for the sake of future options.  Don't bet against us!

Dave Benke


Not only will I not bet against you, I'll pray that the coming second half of your ministries be fruitful.

Thanks, James!


Dave Benke

FrPeters

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2017, 07:50:25 PM »
Nobody knows how I vote and I do not give any indication but they know where I stand on issues such as abortion, same sex marriage, etc. . . It is not exactly a high compliment that people do not know how a pastor affiliates IF that also means he has no public position on these moral issues.
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R. T. Fouts

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2017, 08:17:31 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.
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Jim Butler

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2017, 09:23:55 PM »
Nobody knows how I vote and I do not give any indication but they know where I stand on issues such as abortion, same sex marriage, etc. . . It is not exactly a high compliment that people do not know how a pastor affiliates IF that also means he has no public position on these moral issues.

It is actually because of how I stand on those issues that I am, in the parlance of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, "unenrolled." (I prefer to call myself an Independent.) Our Republican governor, though fiscally more conservative, supports abortion on demand, same sex marriage, etc.

I also don't think either party has all the answers. In fact, the answers all bring up new problems.
The significance of the passage of time, right? The significance of the passage of time. So when you think about it, there is great significance to the passage of time. -- VP Kamala Harris

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2017, 12:29:45 AM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.


Do you say the same thing about the church - made up of humans (and therefore a human institution)?
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dan Fienen

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2017, 03:24:06 AM »
Even if homosexuality were determined to be inate, I donít think that it is equivalent to anti-black racism.  And that is not nearly determined.


Constitutional rights to free exercise of religion and freedom of expression are not absolute.  But neither should they be regard as trivial and easily superseded. 
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R. T. Fouts

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2017, 02:25:39 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.

It is not humanity essentially that is the problem, but human sinfulness. In this respect, insofar as the church consists of fallen humans I do say the same. Insofar as the church consists of saints, redeemed into the image of God in Christ... No.  But there is an inherent difference between an attempt to make utopia ourselves via human institutions (progressivism) and simply living out the Kingod of God in which we are already a part through the church.


Do you say the same thing about the church - made up of humans (and therefore a human institution)?
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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2017, 02:33:41 PM »
Even if homosexuality were determined to be inate, I donít think that it is equivalent to anti-black racism.  And that is not nearly determined.


Constitutional rights to free exercise of religion and freedom of expression are not absolute.  But neither should they be regard as trivial and easily superseded.

Does innateness absolve one from responsibility?  No, under the law (read biological law subject to the ethical when measured in the public sphere) there are no rights without responsibilities.  Gayness (or non-gayness, for that matter) is not a gospel-value, iow.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 02:38:44 PM by George Rahn »

gan ainm

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2017, 05:28:06 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.

I attended an ELCA service this afternoon with a family member. Beautiful building. Lots of people. Jesus the baby was present as was Jesus the social justice warrior. The Jesus who came to die for our sins was absent.  The message had lots of emphasis on reading yourself into the Scriptures and looking for God in your feelings. Little emphasis on looking to the external Word for truth.  Iím not sure what translation was used for the readings but it was definitely PC.  Very progressive.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 05:29:38 PM by gan ainm »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2017, 05:57:08 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.

I attended an ELCA service this afternoon with a family member. Beautiful building. Lots of people. Jesus the baby was present as was Jesus the social justice warrior. The Jesus who came to die for our sins was absent.  The message had lots of emphasis on reading yourself into the Scriptures and looking for God in your feelings. Little emphasis on looking to the external Word for truth.  Iím not sure what translation was used for the readings but it was definitely PC.  Very progressive.


Jesus came and died for our sins, that is true.
Jesus came and taught disciples and commanded us to obey everything he commanded us, that is also true.
Jesus came and as true humanity, showed us through his life how we should live, that is also true.


While the death of Jesus is very important, the external Word is also clear that Jesus did many other things besides dying. I believe that the external Word also tells us that just believing Jesus died for our sins is not all that is expected of us. There is "fruit" that must come from our faith - or that faith is dead.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

gan ainm

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2017, 06:34:27 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.

I attended an ELCA service this afternoon with a family member. Beautiful building. Lots of people. Jesus the baby was present as was Jesus the social justice warrior. The Jesus who came to die for our sins was absent.  The message had lots of emphasis on reading yourself into the Scriptures and looking for God in your feelings. Little emphasis on looking to the external Word for truth.  Iím not sure what translation was used for the readings but it was definitely PC.  Very progressive.


Jesus came and died for our sins, that is true.
Jesus came and taught disciples and commanded us to obey everything he commanded us, that is also true.
Jesus came and as true humanity, showed us through his life how we should live, that is also true.

While the death of Jesus is very important, the external Word is also clear that Jesus did many other things besides dying. I believe that the external Word also tells us that just believing Jesus died for our sins is not all that is expected of us. There is "fruit" that must come from our faith - or that faith is dead.

I believe the most important fruit is to tell others the truth about Jesus such as is summarized in the three creeds. A creed was also absent in the service I attended, as was Confession and Absolution. YMMV re. preferences for the gifts given by Jesus to the attendees.

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2017, 07:17:21 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.

"...but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 1:23)

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1 Corinthians 2:2)

I attended an ELCA service this afternoon with a family member. Beautiful building. Lots of people. Jesus the baby was present as was Jesus the social justice warrior. The Jesus who came to die for our sins was absent.  The message had lots of emphasis on reading yourself into the Scriptures and looking for God in your feelings. Little emphasis on looking to the external Word for truth.  Iím not sure what translation was used for the readings but it was definitely PC.  Very progressive.


Jesus came and died for our sins, that is true.
Jesus came and taught disciples and commanded us to obey everything he commanded us, that is also true.
Jesus came and as true humanity, showed us through his life how we should live, that is also true.


While the death of Jesus is very important, the external Word is also clear that Jesus did many other things besides dying. I believe that the external Word also tells us that just believing Jesus died for our sins is not all that is expected of us. There is "fruit" that must come from our faith - or that faith is dead.

R. T. Fouts

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2017, 07:53:59 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.

I attended an ELCA service this afternoon with a family member. Beautiful building. Lots of people. Jesus the baby was present as was Jesus the social justice warrior. The Jesus who came to die for our sins was absent.  The message had lots of emphasis on reading yourself into the Scriptures and looking for God in your feelings. Little emphasis on looking to the external Word for truth.  Iím not sure what translation was used for the readings but it was definitely PC.  Very progressive.

By "progressivism" I was speaking in the technical sense of American culture and life, typified by the "progressive movement" from 1870ish-1920ish, and experiencing an ideological "revival" of sorts in American political life today.  It was a movement that promised a utopian future, which generated an inevitable let-down in the decades which followed when the capacities of man for evil and destruction became so evident in the early 20th century that post-Enlightenment optimism which saw the human condition "progressing" to a higher and better reality was shattered.   I was speaking of an ideology that underpins much of what might be called "leftism" today... which doesn't really have to do with what bible translation is being used in Scripture.   We were probably using the word in two different ways.
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gan ainm

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Re: Finding faith in the new progressive movement
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2017, 08:15:13 PM »
There is a clear disjunction between progressivism with its utopian ends and Christian eschatology. That said, what progressives often attempt to manifest through earthly governments, we embrace communally as proleptic participants in our not-yet realized future, because we are also living it now.  The difference, however, is that progressivism hinges the accomplishment of these social values upon human institutions.  Their failure rests in the notion that humans (and therefore human institutions) are inherently good and trustworthy.  Recognizing the reality of human depravity, we recognize a need for governments. But we also realize true biblical justice through charity, not by means of secular authorities.

I attended an ELCA service this afternoon with a family member. Beautiful building. Lots of people. Jesus the baby was present as was Jesus the social justice warrior. The Jesus who came to die for our sins was absent.  The message had lots of emphasis on reading yourself into the Scriptures and looking for God in your feelings. Little emphasis on looking to the external Word for truth.  Iím not sure what translation was used for the readings but it was definitely PC.  Very progressive.

By "progressivism" I was speaking in the technical sense of American culture and life, typified by the "progressive movement" from 1870ish-1920ish, and experiencing an ideological "revival" of sorts in American political life today.  It was a movement that promised a utopian future, which generated an inevitable let-down in the decades which followed when the capacities of man for evil and destruction became so evident in the early 20th century that post-Enlightenment optimism which saw the human condition "progressing" to a higher and better reality was shattered.   I was speaking of an ideology that underpins much of what might be called "leftism" today... which doesn't really have to do with what bible translation is being used in Scripture.   We were probably using the word in two different ways.

Yes and no. That underpinning you mentioned has infested several of the more recent translations and especially the messages taught and preached utilizing them - in my opinion the chasm grows ever wider with manís quest for creating heaven on earth rather than preaching/teaching Christ and Him crucified. I agree secular progressivism had a momentary setback due to WW1 and WW2; man has always wanted to be God from the time of Genesis 3. Iím not sure that post-Enlightenment progressivism ever left certain branches of some denominationsí worship.