Author Topic: LCMS kerfuffle  (Read 52104 times)

John_Hannah

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #420 on: January 08, 2018, 06:29:55 AM »
Things like this make me kind of sad.

A confessionally-committed rostered LCMS member takes an action that can at worst be described as reasonably-defensible. Some loud voices in synod raise a great deal of hue and cry. After lengthy conversations, etc., that member is urged to issue an apology for having caused any confusion or offense.

What exactly was won in this scenario? And at what cost? For I can say from experience, it comes at a cost. I could name for you about fifteen former members at my congregation who have pointed to the synod's handling of my public situation as a reason they are now former members. Eight of those former members are right now college-aged. How many people didn't come through the doors in the first place because they googled me and found all the news reports from February of 2013, I have no way of knowing.

Maybe it's the necessary expense of doing confessional business in this current world of ours.

But I lament the expense regardless.

And somehow I get the impression that those issuing the hue and cry aren't lamenting the cost, but wearing as a badge. Maybe that's uncharitable, but it's the impression that I get.

Like I said, the whole thing just makes me kind of sad.

Thank you, Rob. Your impressions about this are exactly what I have observed for my sixty five years as a full time member of the synod; I entered Sexta in 1953. What you see is the reason we have quite a weak "Koinonia". Sad, indeed.

Peace, JOHN
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Rev Mathew Andersen

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #421 on: January 08, 2018, 07:58:39 AM »
Things like this make me kind of sad.

A confessionally-committed rostered LCMS member takes an action that can at worst be described as reasonably-defensible. Some loud voices in synod raise a great deal of hue and cry. After lengthy conversations, etc., that member is urged to issue an apology for having caused any confusion or offense.

What exactly was won in this scenario? And at what cost? For I can say from experience, it comes at a cost. I could name for you about fifteen former members at my congregation who have pointed to the synod's handling of my public situation as a reason they are now former members. Eight of those former members are right now college-aged. How many people didn't come through the doors in the first place because they googled me and found all the news reports from February of 2013, I have no way of knowing.

Maybe it's the necessary expense of doing confessional business in this current world of ours.

But I lament the expense regardless.

And somehow I get the impression that those issuing the hue and cry aren't lamenting the cost, but wearing as a badge. Maybe that's uncharitable, but it's the impression that I get.

Like I said, the whole thing just makes me kind of sad.
I would disagree.  Yes, the Wyoming district way over reacted.  I don't think there was any thing in Dr Jurchin's article that would indicate he was unconfessional or that he personally believed anything other than 6-day, young earth creation.

However,

The article itself was academically poorly done.  The solution he offered is woefully out of date and is very unsatisfying to serious old earth creationists.  As has been pointed out by many on this board in response to one member who has offered the same passe translations, interpreting "day as "a long period of time" just does not fit the context.  And the whole point of being an old earth creationist is that one wants to maintain the integrity of the translation while accepting an old earth.  Having been an old earth creationist for much of my life (though I now accept a young earth), I found the whole day/long age debate silly even as a teen. Dr Jurchin's article deserved to be retracted, not because it was unconfessional, but simply because it was poorly researched and badly thought out.

I find this to be true in a lot of pastoral ministry.  Pastors are expected to offer opinions and "educate" their members on hosts of subjects the pastor knows little about.  One thing we need to do a better job of is training our pastors that they do not need to offer opinions on every subject.  Speak about the Bible and then about what you know.  As to the rest, let it go or make sure you really research the topic before blogging, writing or speaking.

I think Dr Jurchin knows the Bible well.  I suspect he is well educated on evolution.  But he needed to do other research on old earth creationism before offering a poor compromise.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:01:14 AM by Mathew Andersen »

Dave Benke

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #422 on: January 08, 2018, 08:48:00 AM »
Things like this make me kind of sad.

A confessionally-committed rostered LCMS member takes an action that can at worst be described as reasonably-defensible. Some loud voices in synod raise a great deal of hue and cry. After lengthy conversations, etc., that member is urged to issue an apology for having caused any confusion or offense.

What exactly was won in this scenario? And at what cost? For I can say from experience, it comes at a cost. I could name for you about fifteen former members at my congregation who have pointed to the synod's handling of my public situation as a reason they are now former members. Eight of those former members are right now college-aged. How many people didn't come through the doors in the first place because they googled me and found all the news reports from February of 2013, I have no way of knowing.

Maybe it's the necessary expense of doing confessional business in this current world of ours.

But I lament the expense regardless.

And somehow I get the impression that those issuing the hue and cry aren't lamenting the cost, but wearing as a badge. Maybe that's uncharitable, but it's the impression that I get.

Like I said, the whole thing just makes me kind of sad.

Thank you, Rob. Your impressions about this are exactly what I have observed for my sixty five years as a full time member of the synod; I entered Sexta in 1953. What you see is the reason we have quite a weak "Koinonia". Sad, indeed.

Peace, JOHN

Boom.  Agree totally with Rob and John, share their sadness.

Dave Benke
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SomeoneWrites

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #423 on: January 08, 2018, 09:00:56 AM »
I would disagree.  Yes, the Wyoming district way over reacted.  I don't think there was any thing in Dr Jurchin's article that would indicate he was unconfessional or that he personally believed anything other than 6-day, young earth creation.

However,

The article itself was academically poorly done.  The solution he offered is woefully out of date and is very unsatisfying to serious old earth creationists.  As has been pointed out by many on this board in response to one member who has offered the same passe translations, interpreting "day as "a long period of time" just does not fit the context.  And the whole point of being an old earth creationist is that one wants to maintain the integrity of the translation while accepting an old earth.  Having been an old earth creationist for much of my life (though I now accept a young earth), I found the whole day/long age debate silly even as a teen. Dr Jurchin's article deserved to be retracted, not because it was unconfessional, but simply because it was poorly researched and badly thought out.

I find this to be true in a lot of pastoral ministry.  Pastors are expected to offer opinions and "educate" their members on hosts of subjects the pastor knows little about.  One thing we need to do a better job of is training our pastors that they do not need to offer opinions on every subject.  Speak about the Bible and then about what you know.  As to the rest, let it go or make sure you really research the topic before blogging, writing or speaking.

I think Dr Jurchin knows the Bible well.  I suspect he is well educated on evolution.  But he needed to do other research on old earth creationism before offering a poor compromise.

A day-age interpretation is the poorest reconciliation of the Bible and science, so I'd agree the paper could have been better.
I have no doubt he's well educated on the Bible, but I'd be surprised if he's well educated on evolution.  I don't say that as a dig, just a running pattern in my experience. 

When you say you're YEC, do you mean simply that the earth was recently created, or that the Earth also actually gives the appearance of recent creation?
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Rob Morris

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #424 on: January 08, 2018, 09:02:32 AM »
Things like this make me kind of sad.

A confessionally-committed rostered LCMS member takes an action that can at worst be described as reasonably-defensible. Some loud voices in synod raise a great deal of hue and cry. After lengthy conversations, etc., that member is urged to issue an apology for having caused any confusion or offense.

What exactly was won in this scenario? And at what cost? For I can say from experience, it comes at a cost. I could name for you about fifteen former members at my congregation who have pointed to the synod's handling of my public situation as a reason they are now former members. Eight of those former members are right now college-aged. How many people didn't come through the doors in the first place because they googled me and found all the news reports from February of 2013, I have no way of knowing.

Maybe it's the necessary expense of doing confessional business in this current world of ours.

But I lament the expense regardless.

And somehow I get the impression that those issuing the hue and cry aren't lamenting the cost, but wearing as a badge. Maybe that's uncharitable, but it's the impression that I get.

Like I said, the whole thing just makes me kind of sad.
I would disagree.  Yes, the Wyoming district way over reacted.  I don't think there was any thing in Dr Jurchin's article that would indicate he was unconfessional or that he personally believed anything other than 6-day, young earth creation.

However,

The article itself was academically poorly done.  The solution he offered is woefully out of date and is very unsatisfying to serious old earth creationists.  As has been pointed out by many on this board in response to one member who has offered the same passe translations, interpreting "day as "a long period of time" just does not fit the context.  And the whole point of being an old earth creationist is that one wants to maintain the integrity of the translation while accepting an old earth.  Having been an old earth creationist for much of my life (though I now accept a young earth), I found the whole day/long age debate silly even as a teen. Dr Jurchin's article deserved to be retracted, not because it was unconfessional, but simply because it was poorly researched and badly thought out.

I find this to be true in a lot of pastoral ministry.  Pastors are expected to offer opinions and "educate" their members on hosts of subjects the pastor knows little about.  One thing we need to do a better job of is training our pastors that they do not need to offer opinions on every subject.  Speak about the Bible and then about what you know.  As to the rest, let it go or make sure you really research the topic before blogging, writing or speaking.

I think Dr Jurchin knows the Bible well.  I suspect he is well educated on evolution.  But he needed to do other research on old earth creationism before offering a poor compromise.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. But I do think that a healthy organization, even on an academic level, handles what you have termed a "poorly researched and badly thought out" paper differently from the way our synod just handled it. You publish a paper pointing out what you perceive as its weaknesses. You don't demand retractions and threaten church punishment to a Cal Berkeley-educated LCMS member (and LCMS attending) neurochemist because you dislike a few paragraphs of his article. You don't formalize complaints in convention and direct them to his boss and his boss's boss and his boss's boss's boss. And his publisher and his publisher's boss.

I want to be clear: being faithful to Scripture and the Confessions will be costly. And perhaps this is a sterling example of that (though I don't have that impression).

But even if it is true, we must lament that cost.

Charles Austin

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #425 on: January 08, 2018, 11:18:13 AM »
Thank you for your witness, Pastor Morris, “back then” and now. I agree that sometimes, perhaps even often, our ministries mean a certain amount of suffering. But sometimes - doggone it! - it is the wrong kind of suffering for the wrong reasons, imposed by those who should be helping us. And those who would inflict the suffering seem heedless of the cost and the “collateral damage.”
Nonetheless, cheers,

Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #426 on: January 08, 2018, 12:41:36 PM »
Thank you for your witness, Pastor Morris, “back then” and now. I agree that sometimes, perhaps even often, our ministries mean a certain amount of suffering. But sometimes - doggone it! - it is the wrong kind of suffering for the wrong reasons, imposed by those who should be helping us. And those who would inflict the suffering seem heedless of the cost and the “collateral damage.”
Nonetheless, cheers,

Indeed.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Rob Morris

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #427 on: January 08, 2018, 01:11:02 PM »
Thank you for your witness, Pastor Morris, “back then” and now. I agree that sometimes, perhaps even often, our ministries mean a certain amount of suffering. But sometimes - doggone it! - it is the wrong kind of suffering for the wrong reasons, imposed by those who should be helping us. And those who would inflict the suffering seem heedless of the cost and the “collateral damage.”
Nonetheless, cheers,

Indeed.

Thanks to both of you and to Prs. Hannah and Benke.

It wasn't my intent to make the story about me. Just to share how my experience has impacted my view of these "kerfuffles".

Epiphany blessings to each of you.

Dave Benke

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #428 on: January 08, 2018, 02:14:00 PM »
Thank you for your witness, Pastor Morris, “back then” and now. I agree that sometimes, perhaps even often, our ministries mean a certain amount of suffering. But sometimes - doggone it! - it is the wrong kind of suffering for the wrong reasons, imposed by those who should be helping us. And those who would inflict the suffering seem heedless of the cost and the “collateral damage.”
Nonetheless, cheers,

Indeed.

Thanks to both of you and to Prs. Hannah and Benke.

It wasn't my intent to make the story about me. Just to share how my experience has impacted my view of these "kerfuffles".

Epiphany blessings to each of you.

Although I agree with you, Rob, a point that needs to be made is that there has been precious little faith community learning through the decades when it comes to what we've chosen to call "kerfuffles."  Here's the process -
a)  rush to judgment absent any or with minimal conversation (always based on the "public sin" counterfoil) followed by
b)  public airing of grievances against the doctrinal error and its various sources with
c)  back or front door system pressure producing
d)  some kind of apology or a termination followed inevitably by
e) continued vituperation and backbiting leading to
f) demands for further purification of the leadership position or the institution involved.

This is to Koinonia what corrosion is to your car battery, the release of gas from the interior acid. 

Dave Benke

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gan ainm

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #429 on: January 08, 2018, 03:23:46 PM »

Pasgolf

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #430 on: January 08, 2018, 03:29:21 PM »
Thanks David for the list of process.  You have articulated why I am no longer part of LC-MS, despite it's having multiple generations of history in my family.
 
Mark (retired pastor, golfs the pastures) Renner

Dave Benke

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #431 on: January 08, 2018, 03:32:00 PM »

https://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/c/chip_on_shoulder.asp

This is great, thanks.  There is a contingent in our denomination and, I suppose, others, that just carries a grudge.  I don't get it. 

Live in the freedom of the Gospel!  We had Three Kings both Friday and yesterday (therefore missing the actual 3 Kings/Epiphany on either side), and the joy of giving as well as the joy of serving were apparent in those kings - one from Puerto Rico, one from Honduras, and one from Guyana.  Gifts were provided by a Lutheran who is a chief at US Customs, and who brought an entire van-load of gifts for us to share in the community.  That's how we roll in the Season of Light.

Dave Benke
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Charles Austin

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #432 on: January 08, 2018, 03:50:03 PM »
Bishop Benke makes a good point.
Whether believers are racked, thumb-screwed and whipped by zealot “Inquisitors” in the LCMS or faith-rattled, mind-numbed and water-boarded by anything-goes “Reformers” in the ELCA,  there is gospel, true gospel in the Church, the stories we tell, the work we do, and the blessings the Spirit brings.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Harry Edmon

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #433 on: January 08, 2018, 05:47:05 PM »
On the lighter side:

http://babylonbee.com/news/satan-sprinkles-stegosaurus-bones-across-nation-test-christians-faith/

P.S. I believe in creation in six 24 hour days, but I still find this funny!

Harry Edmon, Ph.D., LCMS Layman

RogerMartim

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #434 on: January 08, 2018, 08:30:02 PM »
Science knows the speed of light which is 186,282 miles per second. It takes anywhere from 490 to 507 seconds for sunlight to reach the Earth; light from Proxima Centauri, our nearest star, takes 4.22 light years to reach earth. Many stars and galaxies are millions, if not billions, of light years away. Wouldn't God be a trickster God if they all appeared at the same time in Genesis? I would not care for a trickster God.
Cannot science be a gift from God in which we use our minds to learn and appreciate that the heavens declare the glory of God?